Competitive shooters, a moment of your time please.

[Iceman]

I need a little help/guidance with revolver shooting. A little background, I have shot USPSA, IDPA, Outlaw matches, Action pistol basically for about 30 years and can do alright at that. Carry optics I’m middle of the pack but open sight classes I’m in contention for the win and do sometimes. I have also taken up silhouette shooting .22 cal recently. I do okay. I’m not a terrible pistol shooter is what I’m trying to get at. My wife got me a Pietta Colt 1851 for Christmas a couple of years ago and it gets the best of me, I’m hopeful I can get some guidance to the proper technique for this thing.

The pistol itself appears to be more than up to the accuracy needs. Fired two handed resting my arms on the bench I get 2 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards. My problem shooting one hand offhand (it’s the rules) is about half of my shots hit the point of aim, the other half are widely scattered on the target. All the way to the edge of the NMLRA 25 yard target, that is a pretty big target. I can’t really use the shooters correction wheel because the errant shots are all around the target. So a few question, things I think I need help with.

Stance: should I be turned completely sideways to the target or some other amount? Leaning forward or back? Weight distribution on my feet?

Grip: I struggle here. All fingers on the grip, pistol as low as I can get it? When I do this I have an awkward angle on my trigger finger and it feels funny. Pinky under the grip? This feels better to me with the pistol a little higher my finger is more straight with the trigger.

Grip pressure: How tight should the grip be? Tight as I can without getting sympathetic movement when pulling the trigger? Or more loosely?

Any other tips you got would also be appreciated! Thanks!

 

[jdesro]

Maybe I can help a little. I'm not a great shot, but I do OK, and this is what works for me.

Stance I used to be completely sideways (90* to the target), but I have found that more of a 45* angle puts less fatigue on the deltoid, and seems to allow me to keep the pistol up for longer without tiring. I tend to lean back a bit - probably put more weight on my back foot than my front.

I grip the pistol pretty high, and don't grip it very tightly at all. Best way to describe my grip strength is like I'm drinking a beverage - I hold the pistol with about the same strength as if I'm holding a bottle of water or a can of soda. So not very tight, but tight enough so that it doesn't fall from my hand. And of course not fighting the recoil - just let the pistol roll in your hand as it fires.

Here is a still from a video of how I hold the revolver. Like I said, since this video I have adopted a stance where I face the target a little more, and am not so bladed away from it.

 

[IronHand]

Most people use a classic "bullseye stance ".
The Colt grip is designed to roll upward with recoil in order to place the hammer near your thumb for recocking. Don't fight it.
A death grip is not needed. Especially since recoil is fairly light.
Getting a consistent grip can be an issue, that could be a part of your problem.

Ironhand

 

[Ed C.]

Take into consideration that the barrel will foul up pretty quick. For the accuracy you desire you may want to run a patch or two down the barrel after each cylinder.

 

[CaptainVane]

What Iron said, I hold mine loose. I let it roll up so it’s easy reach to recock the hammer. It rises to about a 45 degree angle. Look at the grip, it’s obvious that it’s made to roll up in your hand to quickly grab the hammer and it cocks as you lower for next shot in one smooth fluid motion.
30 yards. Stance is between straight forward and sideways. If you’re using enough powder to rock you back you’re using too much. I use 15g T7.
PS not a competition shooter.

 

[satwel]

Your issue with inconsistent groups may be more a function of the pistol you are shooting rather than your technique. Given your extensive background in pistol competition I'd be willing to bet your shooting technique is pretty solid. I will start by saying I am a big fan of the Colt 1851 Navy for recreational BP shooting. I love the history, look and feel of them. But they do not lend themselves to precision target shooting due to their open top design. You should search this forum and read all the posts about how to determine if your Colt Navy has a short arbor and how you can go about correcting it.

I will also add that I do not shoot muzzle loading pistols competitively, just flintlock rifles and smoothbores. In the more than 30 years I have been attending NMLRA matches, I have never seen a pistol competitor shoot an open top revolver. They shoot either Ruger Old Army or Remington New Model Army revolvers. Both of those are solid frame designs. If you plan to shoot a revolver in target competitions, your Colt Model 1851 may place you at a slight disadvantage if your fellow competitors are shooting solid frame revolvers.

 

[Iceman]

Thanks for the replies, looks like I have a few things I can try. Doing a little practice building my stance with all of your advices. Looks like the consensus is I don’t need to be 90 degrees to the target, opening up a little is definitely more comfortable. One thing I notice is no matter how I stand I feel tension in the lower half of my upper arm. Going to keep working on that.

@jdesro great picture, i see holding the pistol that low in your hand does the same thing to you as me, forces your trigger finger past where I would normally want it.

Getting a consistent grip can be an issue, that could be a part of your problem.

Ironhand

I think that is probably part of my problem. Seems so far loose grip is what everyone is using.

Take into consideration that the barrel will foul up pretty quick. For the accuracy you desire you may want to run a patch or two down the barrel after each cylinder.

I will bring a cleaning kit next time and see if that helps.

@CaptainVane Nice groups, if that was my target I would not have the shots outside of your main group as close as yours, mine would be off the paper….

@satwel i have never shot pistol at Friendship but plan to, I’m usually shooting on the primitive side of the road. Unfortunately the two local matches I like to shoot are “pistol” matches so I’m also up against single shot pistols to.
In friendship I can compete in revolver only matches. We have a 1858 but I like the Colt clone so much better.
I will look into the short arbor, I have seen many threads discussing it but I’m not much of a gunsmith so I’m not really sure about it. I’ll put some effort into figuring it out. I really want to make this revolver work out for me.

thanks again for all your replies.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

How's your trigger? Excessive creep can cause problems.

 

[Iceman]

How's your trigger? Excessive creep can cause problems.

No creep. I did a couple of dry fires, steady increased pressure until it breaks. I don’t have a trigger gauge to check but it is not a light trigger, not overly heavy either. Hard to tell because the hammer blocks the sights after firing but it appears to be aimed at the same spot after the hammer falls. There is a fair amount of over travel.

I did notice something, it kind of startled me when it dropper the hammer. I never noticed it live firing but dry firing it sure felt that way. I wonder if I am sometimes stiffening up by being surprised when it goes? My center fire pistols I know right when they are going to go off. This I don’t, keep increasing pressure until it trips, I kind of feel like I tensed up by being surprised by it. We might be on to something.

I’m going to see if I can rig something up to dry fire it and see if it is a problem and if I can cure it.

 

[M. De Land]

Maybe I can help a little. I'm not a great shot, but I do OK, and this is what works for me.

Stance I used to be completely sideways (90* to the target), but I have found that more of a 45* angle puts less fatigue on the deltoid, and seems to allow me to keep the pistol up for longer without tiring. I tend to lean back a bit - probably put more weight on my back foot than my front.

I grip the pistol pretty high, and don't grip it very tightly at all. Best way to describe my grip strength is like I'm drinking a beverage - I hold the pistol with about the same strength as if I'm holding a bottle of water or a can of soda. So not very tight, but tight enough so that it doesn't fall from my hand. And of course not fighting the recoil - just let the pistol roll in your hand as it fires.

Here is a still from a video of how I hold the revolver. Like I said, since this video I have adopted a stance where I face the target a little more, and am not so bladed away from it.

View attachment 288234

I used to shoot pistols much better than I do now a 74 years of age and have found that a high grip was more stable for me because it caused me to bend over the wrist joint into a more locked position than does a level joint grip. It also helped me to more easily regain the same grip shot to shot for consistency.

 

[nick_1]

if its benching ok but not shooting well off hand its more than likely the crappy trigger. you really have to work on follow through with those things. A really reasonably priced target pistol if you want to play with the single shot crowd is the Traditions Trapper. heavy and clunky but an absolute tack driver with a great trigger. I slimmed my stock down and carved a thumb groove into it to make it hold like a 1911

 

[M. De Land]

I need a little help/guidance with revolver shooting. A little background, I have shot USPSA, IDPA, Outlaw matches, Action pistol basically for about 30 years and can do alright at that. Carry optics I’m middle of the pack but open sight classes I’m in contention for the win and do sometimes. I have also taken up silhouette shooting .22 cal recently. I do okay. I’m not a terrible pistol shooter is what I’m trying to get at. My wife got me a Pietta Colt 1851 for Christmas a couple of years ago and it gets the best of me, I’m hopeful I can get some guidance to the proper technique for this thing.

The pistol itself appears to be more than up to the accuracy needs. Fired two handed resting my arms on the bench I get 2 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards. My problem shooting one hand offhand (it’s the rules) is about half of my shots hit the point of aim, the other half are widely scattered on the target. All the way to the edge of the NMLRA 25 yard target, that is a pretty big target. I can’t really use the shooters correction wheel because the errant shots are all around the target. So a few question, things I think I need help with.

Stance: should I be turned completely sideways to the target or some other amount? Leaning forward or back? Weight distribution on my feet?

Grip: I struggle here. All fingers on the grip, pistol as low as I can get it? When I do this I have an awkward angle on my trigger finger and it feels funny. Pinky under the grip? This feels better to me with the pistol a little higher my finger is more straight with the trigger.

Grip pressure: How tight should the grip be? Tight as I can without getting sympathetic movement when pulling the trigger? Or more loosely?

Any other tips you got would also be appreciated! Thanks!

Another thing that has helped me is to install a trigger stop externally in the trigger bow. It stops the trigger pull through after the break that often causes the muzzle to dip. I use them in both rifle and revolver.

 

[jdesro]

Thanks for the replies, looks like I have a few things I can try. Doing a little practice building my stance with all of your advices. Looks like the consensus is I don’t need to be 90 degrees to the target, opening up a little is definitely more comfortable. One thing I notice is no matter how I stand I feel tension in the lower half of my upper arm. Going to keep working on that.

@jdesro great picture, i see holding the pistol that low in your hand does the same thing to you as me, forces your trigger finger past where I would normally want it.

I get so many comments on my videos that my finger placement is wrong - that I should only be using the tip and not the joint. You know what? It doesn't matter - as long as you can pull the trigger straight back without pushing or pulling it to one side it doesn't matter one whit how you do it. Tip, joint, knuckle - who cares as long as the trigger comes straight back.

I guess I'm trying to say don't get locked into doing something one particular way because that is "the way it is supposed to be". Try everything - if it doesn't work for you then try it a different way. It seems that too many say to do it this way because that is the way I was trained, because that is the way my trainer was trained, because that is how his trainer was trained, because that is the way Moses was trained. Someone coined the term "Institutionalized Inbreeding" to describe this vicious cycle, and it really does run rampant in the shooting sports.

 

[M. De Land]

I get so many comments on my videos that my finger placement is wrong - that I should only be using the tip and not the joint. You know what? It doesn't matter - as long as you can pull the trigger straight back without pushing or pulling it to one side it doesn't matter one whit how you do it. Tip, joint, knuckle - who cares as long as the trigger comes straight back.

I guess I'm trying to say don't get locked into doing something one particular way because that is "the way it is supposed to be". Try everything - if it doesn't work for you then try it a different way. It seems that too many say to do it this way because that is the way I was trained, because that is the way my trainer was trained, because that is how his trainer was trained, because that is the way Moses was trained. Someone coined the term "Institutionalized Inbreeding" to describe this vicious cycle, and it really does run rampant in the shooting sports.

True which is why I generally add "Works for Me" when asked but there actually are some techniques and modifications that are cast in concrete and universally good pistol craft educate.
Examples are creep free trigger breaks and front sight focus.

 

[Smokerr]

I am spot on with Jdesro. I never was trained in Weaver, Benzadrine, Le Plat or Keith. I just shot pistols the way it felt comfortable. I could shoot 1.5 inch groups at 25 yards when I was younger.

Sometimes ideas on mechanics can help and a lot of the times its trying to enforce one persons comfort on another.

Clearly the OP has an issue with even recoil or the trigger pull, if he can shoot off a bench that good its not a gun or a cleaning issue though in strings cleaning will factor in.

 

[French Colonial]

Dry fire daily, do it until the sights never move at the hammer fall, then do it some more.

 

[BillinOregon]

Good thread.
French Colonial makes a worthy suggestion, but of course it is unacceptable to dry fire a percussion revolver with the nipples in place. Rather than pull the amm. I have occasionally placed a narrow strip of leather in the channel where the hammer falls to cushion the blow, but this is a bit awkward. What's the better solution to allow dry firing without peening the nipples?

 

[Iceman]

Definitely yes on the dry fire, I’m a big fan of Ben Stoeger, his dry fire training has really upped my action pistol game. Leather is a good idea, I was looking around the house for something to block the hammer.

The frustrating thing is knowing I’m doing something wrong but not being able to identify it.
When I shoot other disciplines I have a pretty good feel for where the shot went at the pull of the trigger and know what went wrong if it’s not hitting where I wanted.

I will be headed to the range this weekend if it quits raining to try some of these techniques. I’m feeling good about it!

 

[Iceman]

I get so many comments on my videos that my finger placement is wrong - that I should only be using the tip and not the joint. You know what? It doesn't matter - as long as you can pull the trigger straight back without pushing or pulling it to one side it doesn't matter one whit how you do it. Tip, joint, knuckle - who cares as long as the trigger comes straight back.

You’re right, if I hold the gun that low in my hand it naturally positions my finger in the trigger guard the same as yours is. That’s just going to be what it is. It makes me feel better about it knowing that it’s just the way it is and not something I am doing specifically wrong with my grip. There are a few other things I see in your picture that I also want to try, your body and arm position looks like a more stable stance than what I am doing.

 

[French Colonial]

Definitely yes on the dry fire, I’m a big fan of Ben Stoeger, his dry fire training has really upped my action pistol game. Leather is a good idea, I was looking around the house for something to block the hammer.

The frustrating thing is knowing I’m doing something wrong but not being able to identify it.
When I shoot other disciplines I have a pretty good feel for where the shot went at the pull of the trigger and know what went wrong if it’s not hitting where I wanted.

I will be headed to the range this weekend if it quits raining to try some of these techniques. I’m feeling good about it!

I use piece of a foam earplug under the hammer to keep from battering the nipples, it stays in place for a long time, will slip eventually but I just put it back and start again.