Confused again--Damacus barrels

[11Bravo]

The SxS in question is a Westley Richards built in 1863. I had thought it was a 14 bore and yesterday I got the official record of the gun from WR which included a copy of the original order from their ledger. They said it was built a 12 bore yet when I do a rough measurement at the muzzle I get .660 appox. which would be 16 bore?
So my question is did they choke barrels back in 1863? I didn't think so. The serial number 3196 is stamped on bottom of the barrels which matches all the WR paper work as a 12 gauge?

 

[SOLANCO]

Courtesy of Wiki:
A 12-gauge shotgun, nominally 18.5 mm (0.73 in), can range from a tight 18 mm (0.71 in) to an extreme overbore of 20 mm (0.79 in).
By todays standards your .66 measurement would indicate a 16 gauge gun.
Were the standards the same in 1863? I do not know, but suspect Westley Richards is in the best position to help you with this.

 

[Steel Hayes]

Is it a possibility that somewhere back when, someone could have swapped out the barrels from another WR SxS?

 

[11Bravo]

I guess during the 159 years since it has been made anything is possible? Yet it has the correct number on bottom of barrel, the mystery continues.
Since I found out from WR the person that ordered it I researched the name. Turns out he was a member of Parliament, Lt. Col in the Army and Son of the 5th Earl of Jersey. The best part was he was a Conservative Party MP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Child_Villiers

 

[earlwb]

Well it is possible that your shotgun is choked. The Americans apparently were making choked shotguns before 1873. The Europeans found out and quickly started doing it too. A British fellow patented a choke design in 1866 too.

Ref Shotgun chokes: what they’re for and how to use them

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cho...t known patents for,to the 1866 Roper patent.

 

[11Bravo]

I must say choking a 12 ga. down to .660 is tighter than an extra full turkey choke, and back in day very few shotguns were choked in the UK from what I understand. All the Damacus guns I have are cylinder bore, not saying it might have been choked. To add to the confusion is I found another number on the trigger guard tang and that was 3796. I contacted WR and they said that gun was built 10 bore. The barrels fit the stock and the wedge and ram rod fit perfectly. I just feel my paper work from WR is worthless since it's a different bore than they show. Who knows with something that old but when I get the barrels ready I'll shot it with 2-1/2 dram load of 2F and 1 oz of 8s and just enjoy it.

 

[Colonial Boy]

Looks to be a nice gun, could we have some more photos, please?

 

[nhmoose]

What do the BORES actually measure not the choke end

 

[brazosland]

Op…you need what are called Pin gauges to measure the ID of the bore. Many machine shops will have pin gauges that you may be able to use.

 

[Rudyard]

Its unlikely to have any choke more likely would be' relief 'bores I E open more at the muzzle than at the breach Nice gun nice barrels If WR charged you I would ask them to check. Might be some junior who didn't think it important or Victorian hand writing perhaps . Regards Rudyard .

 

[Steel Hayes]

Looks to be a nice gun, could we have some more photos, please?

I agree, I would love to see lots more photos.

 

[11Bravo]

Up-date; I measured down a few inches and the bores are the same as the muzzle end. This time I used a micrometer and the bores are .664 and that puts it even closer to 16b. Wall thickness is .045 average on both barrels.
As far as photos the breach end of the barrels are soaking for a few days before I start to remove the cones. Therefore you get a partial photo.Thanks for everyone's input,
Wayne

 

[earlwb]

Well they could have a choke in it. But it seems that yours doesn’t. The first shotguns using a choke date back to 1827. But it was around 1867-1873 when everyone started choking shotguns. They had to figure out how to bore hone the barrel and put in the choke at the end. Nowadays they use interchangeable choke tubes etc.

Ref The History of Shotgun Chokes

 

[Rudyard]

William Westley Richards declared aim' to make as good a gun as could be made' . Had Agent Wm Bishop with his dog Toby in London shop' The Bishop of Bond Street ' never took his topper off .
I was once at the remains of the Brum firm I recall a row of round elevated posts in a well lit attic apparently where engravers worked they moving round the fixed work rather than spin the work at a bench .It wasn't used when I was there
. Regards Rudyard

 

[brazosland]

Somebody had new barrels fitted at some point. Not that unusual.

 

[11Bravo]

And here is the Gentleman that Rudyard mentioned, on the copy of ledger for 3196 his name appears.
Brazosland I guess any thing is possible with the age of it, even the ramrod is a work of art in my eyes.

​

 

[Rudyard]

And here is the Gentleman that Rudyard mentioned, on the copy of ledger for 3196 his name appears.

Apparently the" Bishop of Bond street " Had a visitor who had hailed a cabby to take him to the Clerical actual Ordained Bishop . But the cabby took him to Westley's shop he naturally was better known & perhaps the Cab hirer thought he looked like a sporting type . The hat he never took of apparently some one tried to surprise him in bed but he still wore his hat .Definatly one of Old London's Character's .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Up-date; I measured down a few inches and the bores are the same as the muzzle end. This time I used a micrometer and the bores are .664 and that puts it even closer to 16b. Wall thickness is .045 average on both barrels.
As far as photos the breach end of the barrels are soaking for a few days before I start to remove the cones. Therefore you get a partial photo.Thanks for everyone's input,
Wayne

I guess that you've answered your choke question. I have found that by pushing a fairly tight wad down the bores, you can easily tell if they open up more than a few thousands of an inch just from the change in resistance. I notice this about every time I clean my Pedersoli 20 gauge, which Pedersoli rates cylinder and modified (which would be about .010 to .012 in 20 gauge).