Conical tolerances/allowances

[mnbearbaiter]

So with so much variance today of .50 bores what are considerable realms of bullet diameter? I have a 1:32 50cal I'd like to get into shooting Conicals out of but without checking bore diameter where to start? What are the diameters of the more common Conicals available like the T/C maxi ball/maxi hunter, Hornady Great Plains, etc? How much overbore diameter do you recommend for sizing of bullet to bore?

 

[Idaho Ron]

Your 1-32 twist will stabilize a Paper Patched Lee 500 S&W bullet. Wrap the bullets with two wraps of 9# onion skin and size it to .501 and that works in most guns. This bullet is super accurate in all the guns I have seen it shoot in. An the side benefit is it will not come off the powder while hunting.

 

[nkbj]

So with so much variance today of .50 bores what are considerable realms of bullet diameter? I have a 1:32 50cal I'd like to get into shooting Conicals out of but without checking bore diameter where to start? What are the diameters of the more common Conicals available like the T/C maxi ball/maxi hunter, Hornady Great Plains, etc? How much overbore diameter do you recommend for sizing of bullet to bore?

Hey there.
.001" under your bore diameter is the way to go for loading lubed lead bullets. That's what long range target shooters do. Like putting a .399 bullet down a .400 bore so that the amount the bullet has to expand is minimized.
Quick and dirty calculations say your twist should be good for a bullet in the ballpark of 1.1"-1.2" long. Lotsa lead.
REAL's and maxi's are supposed to slip in and then hang up, the front end having a larger diameter than the tail end. Whether a Lee REAL mold is going to fit your barrel is by luck and by golly. If it's too big then they're harder to get started but well, you know it's in the rifling. If the tail is a smidgen too small it can be lapped out a bit using something like lapping compound on a casting (spinning it with a drill motor).

Just for reference, here's some info on base versus nose diameters on some maxi's. http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

Well, maybe all that blabber wasn't all about stuff you're already familiar with.
It's just that it's tough to size to a size needed without measuring. The other route is to sneak up on it by increasing the mold a little if an increase is needed.

 

[fleener]

Buy some of the different bullets and give it a try.

If you want to jump into what your rifle can really do, you most likely will have to get some sizing dies like IR recommended.

A paper patch bullet requires a cleaner bore for loading than a grease groove bullet. If your bore is tight, you can push through the paper when loading. So, if for hunting, you will have to clean for a second shot.

Fleener

 

[Idaho Ron]

A paper patch bullet requires a cleaner bore for loading than a grease groove bullet. If your bore is tight, you can push through the paper when loading. So, if for hunting, you will have to clean for a second shot.

Fleener

That is absolutely not true! Any Part of it. Anyone that thinks that is thinking wrong. Anyone that says that has never paper patched.

This group was shot no cleaning.

This group was shot no cleaning.

Again this group was shot no cleaning.

I guess someone should have told these animals theyu can't be killed with a paper patched bullet.

I could keep going but the fact is you don't need to clean between the first and second shot. If you do you haven't worked up a hunting load. I can shoot at least 5 shots without cleaning.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I size my hollow based mini's to .001 under the bore and have good results. :idunno:

 

[Spikebuck]

I size my hollow based mini's to .001 under the bore and have good results. :idunno:

I'm surprised to see two comments to size .001 under bore diameter. :idunno: I guess every conical I've ever tried was a little over bore diameter, but under the groove to groove diameter so it engraved into the rifling on loading. Even at that, I could never get solid base bullets to fly worth a darn...only those with a skirt, like the Hornady Great Plains worked for me. However, I assume had I tried a tight fitting wad behind the solid base bullets, they probably would have done better.

 

[Kapow]

I'd love to have a shooting match with you one day, Ron! My Lyman Gph with Lyman great Plains bullets vs your T/C Hawken and S & W paper patch bullets!

You never know, I might get lucky! :surrender:

 

[Kapow]

That's definitely been my experience.

 

[Grenadier1758]

When I talk about conical bullets, I am referring to bullets with a solid base.

A muzzle loading conical such as the T/C Maxi Ball or the Lee REAL has three rings around the circumference of the bullet. These rings serve the purpose of forming grease grooves. Two of the rings will be bore size to allow the bullet easy entry and alignment with the bore. The driving band on the T/C Maxi Ball is sized to fill the grooves on a T/C rifle with shallow grooves. The Lee REAL driving bands are also over sized to the land to land diameter. That's why paper patching works as the grooves are filled.

You want the bullet to fill the bore and prevent the gas from cutting the bullet.

Minnie balls work because the skirt expands to fill the bore and the basic diameter of the bullet should be just under the land to land diameter for easy loading.

 

[locotest]

Those are some impressive Muley bucks there Ron!

 

[fleener]

Ron

You sure get your panties in a wad really quick don't you?

My post that set you off was:

"A paper patch bullet requires a cleaner bore for loading than a grease groove bullet. If your bore is tight, you can push through the paper when loading. So, if for hunting, you will have to clean for a second shot."

Notice that I did not say you could not hunt with a PP. It is a fact that if your bore is tight, you can and will push through the paper. Done it more than I would like to think about.

You are using something other than real black powder. Real black powder will require cleaning between shots if you are using a paper patch bullet.

You can attack me all you want and state that I have never used a PP bullet, but you would be wrong and you should not use such a broad statement and limit your comments to things you know.

September of 2015 I was a member of the United States International Muzzle Loading Long Range Team and shot in the World Match held at Camp Butner.

Using paper patch bullets I took home 2 bronzes and 2 gold medals, at 900 yards I shot a 67-3 out of a possible 75 points, this is a a new world record at 900 yards.

So, go ahead tell me how much I don't know. I might even agree with you on some points. As long as I am still living I am still learning. I have not reached your level of knowing everything yet.

Fleener

 

[Idaho Ron]

Sounds like you should have known then doesn't it. If you can't shoot your rifle 5 times no cleaning then you don't have a hunting rifle simple as that. You posted something that was completely untrue about something that with your resume you should know. All I can do is call it like I see it. Sorry

 

[Spikebuck]

Minnie balls work because the skirt expands to fill the bore and the basic diameter of the bullet should be just under the land to land diameter for easy loading.

I guess this would help explain why some people complain that their bullet moves off the charge. I've never had that problem and have even tried to get it to move off the charge by shaking the gun (still safely and under control). But all bullets I've used engrave into the lands.

 

[nkbj]

Yeah, with almost any sticky, viscous, stiff lube something stuck in a small bore piece of pipe tends to stay where it is. The inertia of the bullet has a hard time overcoming the resistance offered by the lube. Not saying that movement will never happen depending upon fit, finish, temperature, extent of rifling engagement, angular relationship of the lead versus the rifling, dropping your rifle out of tree... which is why we'll never beat the belt and suspenders approach of testing things out.
Something that IdahoRon has pointed out on a repetitive basis is that paper patched bullets tend to stay where you put them when they are loaded with a close fit. As fleener pointed out the friction between the patch and the bore can be such that the paper pulls off the bullet (that's happened to me as well). In other words, it wants to stay where you put it.
If you develop the hunting load to suit your purposes the idea that the bullet is going to move off the powder charge is the last thing to be worrying about. If you use a loading technique that creates the problem then yeah, there's a problem.
If you are shooting because you enjoy the sport rather than filling the freezer then a loading technique commonly used by target shooters is just as good.

 

[frogwalking]

I used to have a TC .50 Hawken. The maxiballs TC sold were considerably under groove size, and only a little over land size. they slipped down the barrel easily. They shot great, however. I never questioned how this happened, time after time. There was nothing to complain about.