I'm looking at an original gun it is in pretty much mint condition it is percussion and has a damascus barrel in mint condition. The bore is .340 groove to groove and .332 land to land, the grooves are very thin with round bottoms like many early rifle barrels. So what size round ball can I use and can I assume that the barrel was made for roundballs since the grooves are so thin? I have no way of telling the rate of twist.I know the gun was built post 1853 due to proof marks.
couple of questions about an original gun
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I don't have anything that small, .36 is my smallest, so I'm just guessing and say .310 dia. Vary patch thickness and see what happens . . .
Post pics if ya get it . . .
Post pics if ya get it . . .
I wonder if you add the patch thickness to land to land diameter or the groove to groove diameter or somewhere inbetween to get the correct ball size. If you add .311 to .015 (patch)you get .325 which is a bit small even land to land but you could fill it with a thicker patch, but if you want to fill the grooves all the way you need a .325 ball. of course there is no production .325 ball moulds, lee makes a .319 and rcbs makes a .330, so I don't know. i guess I should have put this in the shooting accessories forum (sorry in advance Mod.)
ohio ramrod
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Even with the small powder charges a 32 caliber would use I recommend you have the barrel magnifluxed before shooting. Safety should always come first. :surrender:
The barrel is pretty massive in diameter but I will remotely fire it with my max load several times before shouldering it, this gun is close to as new condition as it gets.Of course I have to buy it first, still working on that part.
I shoot some in-between guns, between .32 and .36.
I might try a .33 ball and a .010 patch in that gun.
If you get that gun and would like, I would send you some .330 ball & patches to try in it.
I would have to look but I think I have some .320 too.
Track of the Wolf has .323 listed [BALL-323-X .323" round balls]
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(t...D=25&styleID=58&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
Post pictures if you can.
Tinker2
I might try a .33 ball and a .010 patch in that gun.
If you get that gun and would like, I would send you some .330 ball & patches to try in it.
I would have to look but I think I have some .320 too.
Track of the Wolf has .323 listed [BALL-323-X .323" round balls]
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(t...D=25&styleID=58&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
Post pictures if you can.
Tinker2
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paulvallandigham
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The normal rule would be to use a ball that has its diameter .010" smaller than your bore diameter(.332") That would indicate a .320-.322" ball.
You can Try some commercial .310" balls, with thick patching and see what you get by way of accuracy, but I don't think you will be very happy.
Call Lyman to see if they will make you a ball mold in the required size.
If not, contact Tanner to make you a mold. It should not take much work, with the right tools, to open an existing .310" diameter RB mold to your .320-322" diameter.
Before doing this, make sure you have checked that old barrel for large pits. Its most likely made of iron, or possibly soft steel. Corrosion in those soft metals can do significant damage to weakening the lands, in the breech end of the barrel. Its not going to stand up to a lot of use at high pressures, so you want to keep your powder charges low. You might also consider using 2Fg powder just to keep burn temperatures, and chamber pressures down in that old barrel. :thumbsup:
You can Try some commercial .310" balls, with thick patching and see what you get by way of accuracy, but I don't think you will be very happy.
Call Lyman to see if they will make you a ball mold in the required size.
If not, contact Tanner to make you a mold. It should not take much work, with the right tools, to open an existing .310" diameter RB mold to your .320-322" diameter.
Before doing this, make sure you have checked that old barrel for large pits. Its most likely made of iron, or possibly soft steel. Corrosion in those soft metals can do significant damage to weakening the lands, in the breech end of the barrel. Its not going to stand up to a lot of use at high pressures, so you want to keep your powder charges low. You might also consider using 2Fg powder just to keep burn temperatures, and chamber pressures down in that old barrel. :thumbsup:
Tinker, I might take you up on that if the sale goes through, I've made an offer we will see if he'll accept. I hope it is in as good of shape as I think inside, the bores are described as immaculate with no defects what so ever, we will see, the original finish is almost 100% there is no corrosion or pitting anywhere on the gun.I have a couple different diameters of .32cal ball moulds but they aren't marked, I'll have to cast some up and see how they work. What is the standard bore diameter of a .32?
paulvallandigham
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Nominally, a .32 cal. rifle has a .320" Diameter bore.
paulvallandigham
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In theory. The only thing I can suggest for a "cheap" source of round ball that are supposed to be .33 caliber is to order some 00 Buckshot. That is the "nominal" size ( diameter) of that size buckshot.
My cautionary words are based on the fact that when it comes to lead balls, and Mlers, Everything has to be measured with a micrometer to know exactly what you have. Then, some guns shoot very well using the .010" smaller than bore diameter RULE, but others require a larger ball to shoot well. The Depth of the grooves has an effect on what thickness patching you need for the gun for best accuracy, and that, in turn, will affect how small or large in diameter a ball shoots best in the gun.
For example, my brother is working with 3 different .40 caliber rifles, and has different loads for each of them.
He has another gun that has an original, iron barrel that might have been a .33 or .34 caliber, but was so pitted, that he had Bobby Hoyt re-bored the barrel to 42 cal. to get rid of all the deep pits, and then re-rifled it. He shot that gun in that .42 caliber until a couple of years ago, when some of the iron lands at the breech began to break off. He sent the gun back to Hoyt, who lined it with a new steel liner in .36 caliber.
He is now working with standard( easy to get) .350 cal. balls, but also has molds that cast slightly larger balls. After the first Range session with the .350 balls, he was very happy with its accuracy.
We talked about chambering the liner for the smaller diameters, but no one bothered to actually measure the original bore diameter( a .36 cal. jag would not go down the original barrel, except for the first 2 inches. We now know that the muzzle was in all likelihood "coned", and not "worn out " as he thought when he first bought the gun.)
The original bore was so badly pitted, there didn't seem to be any point to measuring the original bore. All Hoyt told him was that the original bore was larger than a .32.
So, don't be too depressed about the problems you encounter with old barrels. Its just part of the deal working with them, and restoring them to functioning firearms again.
I believe my brother is more proud of that rifle, than all the rest he has, including the ones he has made himself. It was his second rifle, and his first restoration. You cannot see the line between the barrel liner and the original barrel, at either end of the gun. The outside of the barrel still looks like it did the day he bought it, with a slight swamp to it, the original sights, and that ancient patina, with scratches and scars that are proof of its old age. With a steel liner, the gun shoot be shooting for another 100-200 years.
My cautionary words are based on the fact that when it comes to lead balls, and Mlers, Everything has to be measured with a micrometer to know exactly what you have. Then, some guns shoot very well using the .010" smaller than bore diameter RULE, but others require a larger ball to shoot well. The Depth of the grooves has an effect on what thickness patching you need for the gun for best accuracy, and that, in turn, will affect how small or large in diameter a ball shoots best in the gun.
For example, my brother is working with 3 different .40 caliber rifles, and has different loads for each of them.
He has another gun that has an original, iron barrel that might have been a .33 or .34 caliber, but was so pitted, that he had Bobby Hoyt re-bored the barrel to 42 cal. to get rid of all the deep pits, and then re-rifled it. He shot that gun in that .42 caliber until a couple of years ago, when some of the iron lands at the breech began to break off. He sent the gun back to Hoyt, who lined it with a new steel liner in .36 caliber.
He is now working with standard( easy to get) .350 cal. balls, but also has molds that cast slightly larger balls. After the first Range session with the .350 balls, he was very happy with its accuracy.
We talked about chambering the liner for the smaller diameters, but no one bothered to actually measure the original bore diameter( a .36 cal. jag would not go down the original barrel, except for the first 2 inches. We now know that the muzzle was in all likelihood "coned", and not "worn out " as he thought when he first bought the gun.)
The original bore was so badly pitted, there didn't seem to be any point to measuring the original bore. All Hoyt told him was that the original bore was larger than a .32.
So, don't be too depressed about the problems you encounter with old barrels. Its just part of the deal working with them, and restoring them to functioning firearms again.
I believe my brother is more proud of that rifle, than all the rest he has, including the ones he has made himself. It was his second rifle, and his first restoration. You cannot see the line between the barrel liner and the original barrel, at either end of the gun. The outside of the barrel still looks like it did the day he bought it, with a slight swamp to it, the original sights, and that ancient patina, with scratches and scars that are proof of its old age. With a steel liner, the gun shoot be shooting for another 100-200 years.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Not to rain on the parade of good advice given here, but if you are buying an original gun made ca. 1853 and it is in mint condition, why would you want to shoot it? Very few guns that are over 150 years old survive in that condition and shooting it, even with the greatest care, will quickly reduce it's value as a collector's piece. Finish on metal and wood will be worn rapidly not to mention possible damage to the bore and it will no longer be in "mint" condition reducing it's value as an historical example that can answer many questions about how these guns were actually made and finished. Less significantly, it's monetary value will be reduced to a greater or lesser degree.
I'm sorry texcl, my question may not be very popular with the "I won't own a gun that can't be shot" crowd and no offense is intended, but my statements concerning antique gun values are a fact of life.
I'm sorry texcl, my question may not be very popular with the "I won't own a gun that can't be shot" crowd and no offense is intended, but my statements concerning antique gun values are a fact of life.
The thing is I didn't buy it as a collecters piece I bought it specifically to shoot, I ended up making the deal today and bought if for cheaper than a factory made gun and I'm sure I will wear it abit but I'm not too worried about the monetary value and since it is belgian there is not much collector's value. Can't wait to go hunting with it, it will be the most perfect small game gun, 12ga. x.34cal side by side. I will try to post some pics. the guy sent to me, like I said I have never seen a percussion combo in this condition before.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
texcl said:
Congratulations on the aquisition. I do have to tell you that MANY Belgian guns, especially those in fine condition, are desireable to collectors and many do sell for very high prices. The quality of Belgian guns has always ranged from poor to exceptionally high quality and some are very desireable. As I am sure you are aware, military arms and Browning guns are the current examples of Belgian high quality. But to each his own.....
Stubert
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A damascus barrel is made by wrapping iron around a mandrel, I wouldn't think it should be massive, it may be finished to look like damascus. Another thing I wonder is how would someone attach a breechplug safley to a damascus tube?
It's laminated steel, I've seen quite a few original damscus and laminated steel barrels dating well into the flintlock era, they were espeacially used on high grade english guns.The barrels are breached like any other gun of the era, the barrel is first formed then it is breached.
