steve free
40 Cal.
The trigger on one of my flintlocks has quite a bit of creep in it. (A long pull before it finally goes off.) It has a single trigger. Does anyone know a good way to fix this?
Creeping trigger
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Just so I understand the question, which do you mean?
Is there a lot of trigger movement before you feel it engage the sear bar (before you feel any resistance)?
Or, do you mean once you feel resistance, the trigger travel is quite far?
The solution to those two problems is different.
I assume you know, but if you don't, the sear bar is the lever that the trigger bar pushes against to raise the sear nose out of the full cock notch on the tumbler, which is what lets the cock fall on the nipple or frizzen (percussion/flintlock).
There usually must be some slack between the trigger bar and the sear bar because on many locks the sear will move down towards the trigger bar when going through half-cock to full-cock. That is why there is slack in the trigger. If there is excessive slack, then a new trigger with a taller, or angled bar may help, to a point. The sear bar still has to have the freedom to move as the lock is cocked.
If it is the second problem, then it is likely that you would have to move the pivot point for the trigger, but you might incur a change in the trigger pull to do that.
The sear has to move a certain amount in order to disengage the tumbler and release the cock. The trigger and trigger bar are essentially a lever moving about a fulcrum. So, changes to the placement of the fulcrum result in changes to the trigger travel required, as well as changes to the amount of force required to pull the trigger. It's a balancing act.
Let us know which is the issue.
Cheers,
Chowmi
Is there a lot of trigger movement before you feel it engage the sear bar (before you feel any resistance)?
Or, do you mean once you feel resistance, the trigger travel is quite far?
The solution to those two problems is different.
I assume you know, but if you don't, the sear bar is the lever that the trigger bar pushes against to raise the sear nose out of the full cock notch on the tumbler, which is what lets the cock fall on the nipple or frizzen (percussion/flintlock).
There usually must be some slack between the trigger bar and the sear bar because on many locks the sear will move down towards the trigger bar when going through half-cock to full-cock. That is why there is slack in the trigger. If there is excessive slack, then a new trigger with a taller, or angled bar may help, to a point. The sear bar still has to have the freedom to move as the lock is cocked.
If it is the second problem, then it is likely that you would have to move the pivot point for the trigger, but you might incur a change in the trigger pull to do that.
The sear has to move a certain amount in order to disengage the tumbler and release the cock. The trigger and trigger bar are essentially a lever moving about a fulcrum. So, changes to the placement of the fulcrum result in changes to the trigger travel required, as well as changes to the amount of force required to pull the trigger. It's a balancing act.
Let us know which is the issue.
Cheers,
Chowmi
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Wow! Chowmi,
Excellent description and answer! :thumbsup:
Respectfully, Cowboy
Excellent description and answer! :thumbsup:
Respectfully, Cowboy
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While changing the pivot point of the trigger will make the trigger pull lighter (due to mechanical advantage), it will not change the long trigger pull before the sear nose releases from the tumbler. IOW, it will have the same sear contact as before.
There are a few ways to decrease the sear contact on the full cock so the trigger pull is not as long. One could drill and tap into the tumbler and add a screw to decrease sear contact, or solder a shim on the tumbler, or the one I don't recommend is to cut the full cock notch down. The last one will cause all kinds of additional problems and more necessary modifications that are usually beyond the ability of most home hobbyists.
Gus
There are a few ways to decrease the sear contact on the full cock so the trigger pull is not as long. One could drill and tap into the tumbler and add a screw to decrease sear contact, or solder a shim on the tumbler, or the one I don't recommend is to cut the full cock notch down. The last one will cause all kinds of additional problems and more necessary modifications that are usually beyond the ability of most home hobbyists.
Gus
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I am totally with Gus on this. What he described is the best way, in most cases, IMO, to correct the creep. Almost every gun I own has a sear block of some sort behind the full cock notch. Even with set triggers. I think the only one without is my brown bess. Many will say that is unnecessary if the gun has set triggers, but by doing so, the set triggers may be adjusted lighter, and made to be very quiet in setting. A boon for still hunters, and usually makes for a decent unset trigger pull.
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I always lighten the sear spring on my locks. Most, if not all, come as unnecessarily heavy. A sear spring needs no more power than to make the sear return to battery in a positive manner. Being TOO light is bad, but as long as the sear returns easily without assistance, that is all that is needed. It also makes for a more quiet lock while reducing wear to some degree.
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fleener said:
It sounds like the angle of the full cock notch is not perpendicular to the center of the tumbler.
Gus
If it's a long pull after the sear bar has contacted the sear lever {creep}, the cause is that the angle between the sear nose and full cock notch are wrong. The tumbler should fall away immediately if the angles are correct resulting is a light pull and minimal creep.
Years ago I bought a S X S shotgun from Navy Arms and among the many defects I found w/ this gun were trigger pulls that were extremely hard and also had a lot of creep. In fact when both triggers were being pulled, the hammers would move rearward denoting a gross mismatch of the sear nose and tumbler angle. In affect, the trigger was pulling against the main spring. This gun was promptly returned. The reason for this is explained in the first paragraph. This is fairly common caused by possible litigation.
When excessive creep and/or a hard trigger pull is encountered, I stone the bearing surface of either the sear nose or the bearing surface of the full cock tumbler notch.
The sear spring can be thinned, but normally isn't needed.
I do this stoning even on some Chambers' locks.....Artificer is correct about the tumbler bearing surface of the full cock notch not being perpendicular to the tumbler centerline.....Fred
Years ago I bought a S X S shotgun from Navy Arms and among the many defects I found w/ this gun were trigger pulls that were extremely hard and also had a lot of creep. In fact when both triggers were being pulled, the hammers would move rearward denoting a gross mismatch of the sear nose and tumbler angle. In affect, the trigger was pulling against the main spring. This gun was promptly returned. The reason for this is explained in the first paragraph. This is fairly common caused by possible litigation.
When excessive creep and/or a hard trigger pull is encountered, I stone the bearing surface of either the sear nose or the bearing surface of the full cock tumbler notch.
The sear spring can be thinned, but normally isn't needed.
I do this stoning even on some Chambers' locks.....Artificer is correct about the tumbler bearing surface of the full cock notch not being perpendicular to the tumbler centerline.....Fred
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I have used the following link before to describe how to reduce trigger pull in a gun that does not have a fly in the tumbler and no set triggers.
http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml
Scroll down to: "Modifications, Step 1. Modify the full cock notch to an angle that increases the trigger pull."
Figure 2. Shows the ONLY correct angle for the full cock notch, in that it is perpendicular to the center of the tumbler.
However, Figure 2.1 in Line B and Figure 2.2 shows a rearward angle the Author suggests to do. I could not disagree more with the Author on doing that, even on large Military Locks. A rearward Angle on the Tumbler Notch like that causes the trigger to actually cock the hammer more as you pull the trigger. There is absolutely no good reason to deliberately modify a Full Cock notch that way. Stay with Figure 2. for the correct Full Cock Notch Angle.
The Author does show some ways to reduce Sear Engagement and again, I strongly recommend against reducing the Sear Engagement as shown in "Step 2. Modify the tumbler to reduce full engagement of the sear in the full cock notch."
Other than that, there are some good illustrations and some good tips in that link.
Gus
Scroll down to: "Modifications, Step 1. Modify the full cock notch to an angle that increases the trigger pull."
Figure 2. Shows the ONLY correct angle for the full cock notch, in that it is perpendicular to the center of the tumbler.
However, Figure 2.1 in Line B and Figure 2.2 shows a rearward angle the Author suggests to do. I could not disagree more with the Author on doing that, even on large Military Locks. A rearward Angle on the Tumbler Notch like that causes the trigger to actually cock the hammer more as you pull the trigger. There is absolutely no good reason to deliberately modify a Full Cock notch that way. Stay with Figure 2. for the correct Full Cock Notch Angle.
The Author does show some ways to reduce Sear Engagement and again, I strongly recommend against reducing the Sear Engagement as shown in "Step 2. Modify the tumbler to reduce full engagement of the sear in the full cock notch."
Other than that, there are some good illustrations and some good tips in that link.
Gus
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Wick- could you explain that a little more fully because I'm not sure I understand. Thanks about the sear spring often being too strong. What I don't understand is whether there is friction with the tumbler, etc.
And to others: ...this soldering a shim in the notch to create a hair trigger, etc. Personally, I'm not sure that is a good idea.
What about some of these single triggers pinned between two bosses on a trigger plate plus a coil spring added- seems like plenty of places for friction to cause a problem. Also, these bosses are often so low that the trigger pull is horrendous.
And to others: ...this soldering a shim in the notch to create a hair trigger, etc. Personally, I'm not sure that is a good idea.
What about some of these single triggers pinned between two bosses on a trigger plate plus a coil spring added- seems like plenty of places for friction to cause a problem. Also, these bosses are often so low that the trigger pull is horrendous.
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What I tried to describe, is what Gus was describing. I don't see added friction at all. It is simply a tiny block soldered onto the tumbler body, just behind the notch. The height of this block governs the amount of sear nose contact in the notch. You start with the block being too high, and trim it down with a small file until you get enough sear nose contact for it to be positive, and or, to the easy release pressure you want. Use a low temp solder such as 60-40, or be careful to apply the heat well behind the notch and let it slowly rise to get solder flow, then stop the heat source. The sweet thing about this is that at any time you wish, the block can be removed and everything is back where it was before you installed the block. No harm done, and no permanent changes made.
steve free
40 Cal.
First off, I want to thank all of you for your help. I feel very fortunate to have so many knowledgeable friends to help me out. To answer the question on what kind of trigger pull I am experiencing, its a little of both. Some creep before it engages the sear, and some after. I hope this helps. Thanks again Steve
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fleener said:
Are you referring to a lock made by Bob Roller, himself, or a kit made to resemble one of his locks?
I have seen a lot of Bob Roller's locks since I first met him in a Tipi on the Primitive Range at Friendship in 1974 and his locks were all high quality.
Gus
Onojutta
45 Cal.
A little play before the trigger contacts the sear is normal, as someone else explained earlier. But if you're complaint is that once it contacts the sear, you feel like the trigger is moving too far back before the gun goes off and it's not very crisp, this could simply be that the pivot point of the trigger is located too close to where the sear contacts the trigger.
The closer the sear is to the pivot point of the trigger, the lighter the pull effort will be, but the further your finger will travel back while the trigger "lifts" the sear. If you have access to the "Gunsmith of Grenville County" book, there's a good sketch that shows this and explains the best positioning. Not sure if that's what you are experiencing, but if so you might want to check that first before messing around with the lock.
The closer the sear is to the pivot point of the trigger, the lighter the pull effort will be, but the further your finger will travel back while the trigger "lifts" the sear. If you have access to the "Gunsmith of Grenville County" book, there's a good sketch that shows this and explains the best positioning. Not sure if that's what you are experiencing, but if so you might want to check that first before messing around with the lock.
Well there are a lot of different things at play. Trigger pull can be influenced by the pivot pin location on the trigger. If the trigger is pinned to posts that are part of the trigger plate- the pin is often very low and that increases trigger pull. You can have a crisp trigger with a heavy pull. BUT, from what I understand there is some friction before the trigger moves far enough back to engage the sear bar. If that is the situation then I assume there is no weak coil spring to keep the trigger from freely moving forward. Any friction before the trigger contacts the bar would be the trigger's bearing surfaces against the sides of any posts, etc. I suppose the trigger might be wearing against one side of the slot in the trigger plate but I doubt that. The pin is probably smooth but perhaps the hole in the trigger is rough.
In any event the trigger goes back until it contacts the bar but then instead of a crisp break you have to pull the trigger back farther than you like. Off hand it would seem the nose of the sear is excessively deep into the notch on the tumbler and has a long way to move before letting the tumbler drop. Assuming that is the situation you need a more shallow notch. There are actually a few locks around with a set screw in that area- you can move it out which makes the notch more shallow. You could drill a hole, drive in a pin and then keep filing down the pin until you can lock up the works to your liking. This has been done on some modern semi-auto pistols. You can also do the shim although the pin method gives you perhaps a more precise adjustment. I tried to find a Bob Roller lock on the net but the bridle is covering up the area that needs to be seen. I did notice however that the width on the sear spring seems really wide but that would have more to do with pull than creep.
I always like the "quick" fix. Get a thin piece of sheet metal and Elmer glue it in place. The glue is not waterproof so you can easily remove it. Never use Elmer on a permanent fix- it isn't any good- just use it to see if making the notch more shallow is fixing the problem.
There was mention that the full notch might be undercut and you are therefore working against the mainspring in part to move the nose downward out of the notch. If the angle is exactly right, the nose of the sear moves straight down against a notch with no undercut however some folks think that might be dangerous and have a VERY slight undercut in the notch. Those angles are pretty exact and I would not do anything in that area unless nothing else is fixing the problem.
On that single trigger- they come in all sorts of styles. You'll see a trigger plate with small humps and the pin is right on top of the plate (heavy pull). TOW will sell trigger plates with much higher tabs that improve the trigger pull.
In any event the trigger goes back until it contacts the bar but then instead of a crisp break you have to pull the trigger back farther than you like. Off hand it would seem the nose of the sear is excessively deep into the notch on the tumbler and has a long way to move before letting the tumbler drop. Assuming that is the situation you need a more shallow notch. There are actually a few locks around with a set screw in that area- you can move it out which makes the notch more shallow. You could drill a hole, drive in a pin and then keep filing down the pin until you can lock up the works to your liking. This has been done on some modern semi-auto pistols. You can also do the shim although the pin method gives you perhaps a more precise adjustment. I tried to find a Bob Roller lock on the net but the bridle is covering up the area that needs to be seen. I did notice however that the width on the sear spring seems really wide but that would have more to do with pull than creep.
I always like the "quick" fix. Get a thin piece of sheet metal and Elmer glue it in place. The glue is not waterproof so you can easily remove it. Never use Elmer on a permanent fix- it isn't any good- just use it to see if making the notch more shallow is fixing the problem.
There was mention that the full notch might be undercut and you are therefore working against the mainspring in part to move the nose downward out of the notch. If the angle is exactly right, the nose of the sear moves straight down against a notch with no undercut however some folks think that might be dangerous and have a VERY slight undercut in the notch. Those angles are pretty exact and I would not do anything in that area unless nothing else is fixing the problem.
On that single trigger- they come in all sorts of styles. You'll see a trigger plate with small humps and the pin is right on top of the plate (heavy pull). TOW will sell trigger plates with much higher tabs that improve the trigger pull.
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"You could drill a hole, drive in a pin and then keep filing down the pin until you can lock up the works to your liking. This has been done on some modern semi-auto pistols. You can also do the shim" Quote from Crockett.
Dave, the small block I described does the job of the above mentioned pin. The pin method works very nicely, however, most tumblers and modern gun hammers, are too hard to be drilled without using a carbide bit, or annealing the piece, which would mean having to re-heat treat.
Dave, the small block I described does the job of the above mentioned pin. The pin method works very nicely, however, most tumblers and modern gun hammers, are too hard to be drilled without using a carbide bit, or annealing the piece, which would mean having to re-heat treat.
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I've used that pin method on all manor of fire arm Wick including 1911's.
It is far better than removing full cock depth to achieve a lighter more crisp trigger pull.
But first all the surface have to be squared and stoned to fully engage with one another. A hole is then drilled on center in the full cock notch kissing the under ledge and a pin snuggly fit and held in with red loc-tite.
It is gradually filed lower then stoned smooth and tapered to the edge (so trigger or sear is able to slide off smoothly) until the desired trigger break is achieved.
I have also done this with a set screw to make it adjustable but find the pin is more practical and just as effective.
It is far better than removing full cock depth to achieve a lighter more crisp trigger pull.
But first all the surface have to be squared and stoned to fully engage with one another. A hole is then drilled on center in the full cock notch kissing the under ledge and a pin snuggly fit and held in with red loc-tite.
It is gradually filed lower then stoned smooth and tapered to the edge (so trigger or sear is able to slide off smoothly) until the desired trigger break is achieved.
I have also done this with a set screw to make it adjustable but find the pin is more practical and just as effective.
