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Crow Killer

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Ashelocoa

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"The Hawken rifle, brand new, of .30 caliber, cost Johnson fifty dollars. This was double the price charged in St. Louis--but not out of reason. It was the best make, and meant all the difference between life and death." P. 25-26, "Crow Killer--The Saga of Liver-Eating Lohnson", by Raymond W. Thorp and Robert Bunker.


The story came from "Del" Gue, long time friend of Johnson, who told it to J.F. Anderson(AKA White-Eye) over a long friendship late in Gue's life from 1885 to sometime after 1900. Raymond Thorp first started to write the tale in interviews of White-Eye starting around 1940-41.
The cpyright date that is earliest is 1969.

The story came from "Del" Gue, long time friend of Johnson, who told it to J.F. Anderson(AKA White-Eye) over a long friendship late in Gue's life from 1885 to sometime after 1900. Raymond Thorp first started to write the tale in interviews of White-Eye starting around 1940-41.
The cpyright date that is earliest is 1969. Del Gue told the story so I doubt he could have had too many facts wrong. Rating bores strictly by balls per pound was going by the wayside in the 19th century, that was an English system that started falling out when we kicked out the English; at least as far as rifles are concerned.

Johnson lived from 1822-1900, entered the frontier scene in 1843, fought in the civil war, and eventually checked himself into a veteran's hospital in Los Angeles, CA, where his grave can be found today.

""Del" Gue told much of this story. As Johnson's partner, Del Shared many of his experiences. AS good talker and listener Del heard and sorted out what many another Mountain Man had seen of Johnson." p. 11

""Del told Johnson's story in special detail to "White-Eye"--J.F. Anderson. As one who had observed some of Johnson's exploits for himeself, Anderson took special care that the story be set against exact physical background." p.11

"...White-eye spoke only what he was sure of, anyone who knew the old man could testify." p.14

"[Raymond W. Thorp]...was in correspondence with men who knew Jonhson in the 1870's and 1880's,...he knew the way Mountain Men talked, from his own long association with the last of them." p.14

These were authors that knew their stuff, first person, second person in the case of White-eye, whose eveidence they diligently cross referenced with other interviews, governement and municipal records. I have no doubt the accuracy of the text.

Much has been batted around about John Johnson, this book cut through the b.s. to tell the amazing story of a great man.

Ashelocoa
 
From reading Raymond Thorps' book on the Bowie knife, I would take anything he wrote with not a grain of salt, but the whole danged shaker. Thorp had a bad habit of writing down his imagination as historical fact, and even believing it himself. I read "CROW KILLER" many years ago. A good read, but I would question the historical accuracy of it, from Thorps' reputation.
 
quote:Originally posted by Ashelocoa:

Much has been batted around about John Johnson, this book cut through the b.s. to tell the amazing story of a great man.
Although this may be a good "book", it is not Primary Documentation. It can not be used as an example of fact. It sounds like third-hand information at best.

Please see the Primary Documentation Definition:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ubb/primdoc.html
 
A .30 caliber Hawken? I've seen that printed elsewhere. I certainly question it. An old typo, maybe, that has been reproduced over and over again through the years?
The Hawken brothers produced rifles specific for men bound for the wilderness. I doubt that they would have made a .30 squirrel rifle for men who would be encountering grissly bear, buffalo, and Indians. And, what kind of wet behind the ears, greenhorn would go into the hostile unknown with a little popgun?
 
I was wunner'n "thet" m'ownself Sharps, glad you asked!!

Claude, how is it possible fer'a un-registerd/un-named feller to post on this forum?? :: :: :shocking:
 
I've wondered about that for a long time. The old standard for measuring bore size was in the number of bore sized balls you could run from a pound of lead. A 30 bore (30 balls to the pound) is 0.537" That makes a lot more sence to me for a Hawkin caliber.
 
As a lot of you have, I've seen this "30 cal" Hawken thing bandied about as if it were etched in stone.

It is more than probable that I have seen the following written than it is that I deduced it of my own accord, to wit: During the time of the "Hawken" and other "plains rifles" and certainly prior to that time, caliber as we know it was more often than not referred to as "balls to the pound". I believe it is in Zenas Leonard description of a "mountain man" that his rifle is referred to as "carrying about 30 balls to the pound". Extrapolation shows the weight of that "ball" to be 233.33 grains which quite closely equates to 54 cal. Given the period in time some of these books were written and the possibility of the writers ignorance of firearms, is it not possible that the writers could or would have confused "balls to the pound" to hundredths of an inch? Even in the 1920's it seems a person 50 years old would have more experience with cartridge firearms than plains rifles and given the impact of WWI a 54 caliber rifle would sound immense as 30 cal was the issue caliber of the US military. I can't help but wonder if some of those writers confused "balls to the pound" with caliber. Anyone else have any thoughts or provenance? To me it seems too obvious to be happenstance.

Vic
 
The Saga of Liver-Eating Johnson", by Raymond W. Thorp and Robert Bunker.

The REAL John Johnson aka -
"Liver Eating Johnson"

Jeremiah Johnson
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Johnson's grave site is no longer at a V.A. Hospital in Los Angeles, CA. On June 8, 1974 it was relocated to, "Old Trail Town", near Cody, WY. Robert Redford, attended the relocation ceremony and if I remember correctly, I believe he was a pallbearer. It was nice to see that his body was returned to the land he had chosen to roam for so many years.
 
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