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CVA Double Barrel in .410 gauge?

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threepdr

40 Cal.
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
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I picked up this little gem at an estate sale this past weekend. Good news it appeared unfired. Bad news was it had been left in a padded case and neglected for several years and the top 1/3 of the barrels had external rust. Got it cheap because of the rust. I have wire brushed the scale off and it does not look too bad now.

This is a simple design, no frills double shotgun, but wieghs only a trifle and looks like it would be a dandy kids or ladies gun.

Anyone have any suggest loads for a .410 muzzle? loader? Any idea what it might be worth

Thanks!

Threepdr
Huntsville, AL
 
What would you possibly use a .410 DB shotgun for? At least a 28 gauge throws nice patterns, and is terrific for shooting quail, and some grouse, or pheasants over dogs. The .410 bore is about useless beyond 22 yards, and doubtful even at that yardage.
 
Perhaps the "use" that the gentleman has for a .410 is that he simply wanted it as would I given a chance. It would be interesting to shoot-plinking- or whatever. Perhaps he does not have dogs or grouse!
 
I don't think I'll ever be hunting grouse or pheasent with any flavor of .410 shotgun.

I've killed a bushel of squirrels with my old savage 24C .410 though. I suspect this one could be a squirrel slayer also with the right load.

If my youngest son was six instead of 24 it would be his. It would a perfect kids gun to learn the basics of muzzleloading without being intimidated with the size and recoil.

By the way...when I got it home I checked to be sure. yep..it was loaded. Loaded with two patched round balls!

In answer to the question, it is percussion. It is about the quality of most Conneticuit Valley Arms products. Made in Spain, servicible, reliable, but no frills.
 
I've used a 410 double cartridge gun for over 30 years. Anyone who says they won't pattern well is doing too much reading and too little shooting. Match the load to the gun and the choke and you can get nice, even patterns to respectable distances. It's just that your patterns are a little smaller while delivering the densities you're used to with larger gauges.

Nuff rumor stomping. Shoot em and learn to use em, or sell em and let the subject drop.

The effective range for me on ptarmigan (roughly the size of grouse) and snowshoe hare (roughly the size of jackrabbits) is about 25 yards with 1/2 oz of #7 1/2 or #8 lead shot. You might stretch it to 30 yards with hare, but I wouldn't try it with ptarmigan. I carried it with me for a couple of years on pheasant trips to warmer country. Same 25 yard range limit appears to hold with those birds, too.

You can certainly stuff more shot into a muzzleloader, just as you can shoot 3" shells with heavier shot charges in a cartridge gun. But in the cartridge gun patterns are worse and effective range is shorter with the 3" shells than with the 2.5" shells. I'd expect the same principle to be at work in a muzzleloader, because there's just a point of no return in terms of shot column length and pattern performance. I'm betting it's around the 9/16 of a 3" cartridge. I'd certainly not expect it to go as high as even 5/8 oz.

Yeah, a 410 is harder to shoot than a 28 (got a couple of those that I use a lot, too). But when you work up a nice load and respect it's limits (I like to think in terms of 20" patterns rather than 30" patterns), a good 410 will deliver the goods. To the extent that you need to work with that smaller pattern, it will demand more of you as a shotgunner. But dang, it's sure a fun gun to use when you get the hang of it.

If you decide to let that little beauty go, my name is spelled BROWNBEAR.
 
Should be a joy to carry afield for quail, rabbits and tree rats.

I have taken a lot (as in, a very lot) of small game with a 410.
 
Man, me too. Sounds like a really fun gun. Shot a lot of small game with a .410, starting on doves when I was a kid. Nice score. :thumbsup:
 
"Yeah, a 410 is harder to shoot than a 28 (got a couple of those that I use a lot, too). But when you work up a nice load and respect it's limits (I like to think in terms of 20" patterns rather than 30" patterns), a good 410 will deliver the goods."

Very true. Lots of bad talk about the .410 that just isn't so. Respect it's range limits and realize that the pattern is smaller. A nice light gun to carry.
Pete
 
Likely worthless :haha: You should pack it up and send it to me to evaluate for ......well forever. :rotf:

Sorry, I have no idea what it would be worth. I didn't even know they made such a thing but I'm bettin it would sure be fun to try out on a good dove hunt.
 
I spent a lot of time patterning a .410 when I was young, and my best friend got a .410 Winchester single shot. He reloaded, and we shot commercial shells as well. The patterns were very thin and almost non-existant at 40 yards, even with a full choke. We found that choke did not improve the pattern of the .410 and that it patterned the same being shot from a cylinder bore gun as it did from a full choke barrel.

Inside 25 yards, it took rabbits, squirrels, and even birds okay. My friend was one of the best wingshots I have ever known, before or since, and he could hit moving targets with amazingly high percentages, even as a pre-teen. In the army he matched the Camp Qualification Score record at Ft. Leonard Wood. Because of an astigmaticism in his right eye, he actually had more trouble shooting stationary targets than shooting moving ones. He learned to snap shoot the stationary targets so that his eye did not have time to " focus ", which caused the sight picture to " move ", because of the astigmatism.( a misshapened lens)

I hunted dove with my best friend who was using his Model 21 .410 exclusively that Dove Season, because someone challenged him that he could not kill as many doves as he did the year before shooting a 20 or 12 gauge. He was knocking them down, but all his shots were at birds within 15 yards. He ran a string of 63 kills without a miss, but he would have told you this only happened because he was very disciplined in picking his shots, and passing on the longer ones.

.410 doubles are cute guns. They are light weight, ( easy to carry), they can kill small game, at reasonable ranges. But they are not a gun for beginners. They are a gun for expert shooters. Having said that, the largest market for the .410 bore is for kids. If you look at Skeet records, the last gauge that shooters will master to take 100 straight targets in that game will be using the .410. Long before, they will have broken 100 straight with the 12, 20, and 28 gauge guns, in the 4-gun competitions. Its the .410 that is the gun that separates the winner from the also rans.

You are only shooting 1/2 oz. of shot, and even shooting small shot like #8, that means you have only about 200 pellets in the total load. At 30 yards, you will be lucky if 160 actually hit the paper. At 40 yards, you are lucky if 100 hit the paper. This is largely due to the fact that the bore of the gun is so small in diameter, that much more of the shot is rubbing against the barrel as it exits the gun, putting flat sides to the shot pellets, which cause those pellets to leave the pattern early, and fall to the ground. With #6 shot, ( the most commmon commercial loading available) you have only a very small center core of shot running the length of the cartridge that leaves the barrel undamaged, and which can be depended on to hit the target beyond 20 yards.

A well made, .410 DB in good condition, should bring $1,000 or more in the market today. I have seen some go for less, but most of those that are sold for less have serious damage, or wear to them.

I would still prefer, and recommend a 28 ga. gun to anyone, including someone wanting to start a youngster out shooting, looking for a light weight, low recoiling shotgun. The Ill. Dept of Conservation runs a " Wingshooting Camp " for kids and women, and the gun chosen is a .28 ga. Remington 1100. The program has been around for about 5 years and they have trained women and kids how to shoot shotguns all over the state with those guns. There must be a good reason for that choice.
 
I guess I have to disagree Paul, but with an explaination. My father has a Savage over under 410 22 combo gun. The 410 barrel is pretty heavy walled. Using 3 inch 6's or 5's, you had better pull off the rabbit a little at 30 yards if you want to eat him. I am not saying all 410's pattern that way, but it is possible to produce 40 yard turkey patterns with the 410. The patterns are smaller, but speed and density of pattern is good with this gun.
I killed my first squirrel with the gun at about 35 yards a few years ago. It's favorite ammo, Remington Peters 3 inch number 5's, is not available anymore. A muzzleloader 410 would be a blast to play with!
 
paulvallandigham, I would have to agree that the best chance of hitting any target with shot is to throw as much shot as you can at one time. I suspect that my 3 pounder field gun loaded with three pounds of #6 shot is bound to make a bigger pattern than any 12 guage.

But I think you are evaluating the .410 on the premise of wing shooting. That is only one role that any shotgun would fulfill.

Basic rabbit or squirrel hunting with a .410 can be a very fun (and successfull)for a small statured person. When I was killing all those squirrels and at least 2 qauil before when I was a small fry, you could not convince me that I had the wrong shotgun. I did'nt miss much so the small shot pattern did not discourage me. When I was 11 or 12 I started using my Dad's old Rem M48. But I still took out the old .410 for squirrel hunting occasionally!

If this estate sell bargain would have been a 28 guage, I would have bought it anyway, or a 12 for that matter, but it is what it is and someone will get a hoot from it in the future.
 
My only concern, and it's a little one, is finding a source for the right components. The overshot cards I used to use with roll crimps in cartridges might be too small for a friction fit in a ML. And you're likely to end up cutting your own felt over-powder wads. A single custom punch would overcome both issues, but it's one step between you and happiness. Short term you could use plastic shot cups and hand cut shot cards if that didn't bother you. I know from long experience with a double 12 ML, the shot cups can improve patterns tremendously.

Another loading point worth passing along. More than any other shotgun I've tried, the 410 is really affected by shot hardness. The harder the better for good patterns as range stretches.

And finally velocity. Loads below 1200 fps are going to pattern much better than anything faster. I'd hesitate to drop below 1100 fps with small shot on game, but I know full well that 1100fps with #7 1/2s will do just fine. If you were chasing quail and other small birds I'd probably go to #9 shot for pattern density, but I'd not let the mv drop below 1100 with it.
 
Circle Fly make all 3 types of wads for a .410, overpowder, cushion, and overshot. Track carries them. You can find them here.[url] http://www.trackofthewolf.com...&subId=37&styleId=118&PageSize=25&Page=4[/url]
 
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A 410 dbl would be great fun!! Pictures? the reason I love my cva trapper shotgun is that if I don't want to shoot a 12 ga today Iload it to 20ga level I have killed a ton of gray squirrels with 7/8th oz 6's and the same volume of ffg I have with success loaded 50 grains of powder and same by volume of shot and in my gun As far as range I figure out the range I can put 8-10 pellets in a pop can and that is my max range for that gun/load back before the internet I had an old smoothbore spanish gun marked 9MM I made wads out of craft felt glued together to 3/8" and cards from cardboard 40 grain ffg and 50 grains setting for 7 1/2 shot I could put 8-10 pellets in a pop can at 13 steps if it was farther than that I passed the shot that same gun would hit a pop can at 25-30 yards with 40 grains of powder one of my 3/8th wads and a peice of 00 buck patched with craft felt lubed with cooking oil
I didn't know better back then and it worked
Roy
 
Commercial cartridges in .410, were only available in #6 or #9 shot, the latter used by skeet shooters. I never had a chance to pattern it, or test it using #5 shot. I do know that #5 shot does carry more energy down range, and if you hit a squirrel or rabbit with any #5 pellet, you should kill it.

The one advantage a ML .410 bore shotgun will have over the cartridge version is that you have more flexibility regarding loads. You can load more than 1/2 oz, or 5/8 oz of shot in a MLer, where that is not really likely in either length of cartridges now available. And, you can load very much harder shot in it. Since #5 shot is .12 in diameter, I have my doubts if you can possibly load 3 per row of shot, making the # of pellets in any given load stretch the pattern out even further. It might be interesting to play around with some kind of filler used to buffer the shot pellets to see what improvement you might get with such a small bore gun.

With the .41 Magnum revolver round alive and well, I doubt we will see the components disappear any time soon. There are many .410 shotguns out there, and a few of them are MLers.

Please don't get my first comment wrong. I would love to shoo that DB gun. But it would not be my first choice of shotguns even for a small kid. I know how much work my best friend put in learning to shoot his .410 to get good with it, and I used to help him reload shells for it with his Lee Loader on his kitchen table. His father was his coach. Dad had been a bomber flight mechanic on a B-24 bomber in the Pacific during WWII, and that meant he was also a waist gunner. He learned to shoot a .50 caliber Browning machine gun. To learn, they started people out using shotguns at a skeet range to learn angles, and lead. Chuck had grown up shooting in Farm Country, so he was one of the better machine gunners in the bunch, and was actually asked to help train the " city guys ". When he taught Bud to shoot his single shot .410, he took Bud to the nearest Skeet Range, and shooting singles only, went through 4 boxes of shells without a miss. Bud had never seen his father shoot anything, before that, and was dutifully impressed. Some of the club members approached his father to ask where he learned to shoot skeet, and he shocked them by simply saying, in the Army Air Corps. This would have been about 1958 or 59 when bud first got the gun. I have a bolt action single shot .410 now, that I am restoring, and refinishing to make a present to Pheasants Forever for training kids. I shot a few rounds through it to see that it functioned properly before going to work on it.
 
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