CVA mountain rifle at range and questions

[Jac Spring]

Well, made it out to the range today with the CVA mountain rifle. It did pretty good but not specatacular. Here are a couple of pics - the target only has two holes because I ran out of ffg powder in my flask! Had plenty back at the ranch but not at the range, so that cut the shooting short... but the group size is what I was getting for 3 shots too. 50 yards - about 2" groups.

I tried a couple different loads and two different patch thicknesses - .01 and .015 - decided that the .015 was the better of the two as it wasn't that hard to push it down the bore and seemed to group better. The two charges tried were 100 and 120 grains. The 100 grain charge is what made that two-shot group shown.

Now, a couple of questions: one - the #11 caps that I was using barely fit the nipple - they actually bulged on one side when seated down. Had 100% ignition, but that bulge bugged me. Is this possibly set-up for musket caps? What's the difference in size between #11's and musket caps?

Here's a pic of a seated cap - if you can see - its bulged on the right side:

So what do you guys think?

And finally, (sorry for all the questions) what are "typical" good load combo's for 54 cal, slow-twist rifles? This has a 1-66" twist rate.

I really enjoyed the shooting - this baby bucks a bit but it's fun!

TIA

 

[boar]

In my 54 St Louis hawken I shoot 80grs 2ff, have killed two deer over 100yrds with Rb. My MT Rifles are 45, so use 40 gr target and 70gr 3ff for hunting. My TC Hawken liked 42grs 2ff, killed groundhogs 72yrds RB, pumped right thru them. I would cut back on powder. A little bit of powder, a little bit of lead, shoots far and kills dead. Dilly

 

[Runner]

I shoot a 495 over 70 grains of 2f. That is the accuracy load for my gun. It has been my experience that the CVA barrels most often like a very tight load. Using the 495's and a tight patch, I can step up to the higher loads with acceptable deer hunting accuracy, but I haven't shot that much powder in years.

 

[nchawkeye]

Drop down to 75-80 grains of powder (ff or fff doesn't matter) and put a bit of hornets nesting (or a wad) between powder and ball...

btw...how did the patches look after shooting??

I shot 100-120 grains for a few years with my custom .54 flinter, don't need that much for deer, 75-80 works just fine.

 

[Slake]

It bucks a bit because of your charge. I used to shoot big and then I started scaling back and found my accuracy increased. I do serious target shooting at about 70 grains and I crank that up only for deer hunting and then I rarely go over 100. 90 has killed many deer for me. Accuracy of the well placed shot kills deer better than brute force wildly hit. You can even go lower you could try goin down to fifty or so {on targets} and see what happens.
One of the best parts of muzzleloading is the expeirmentation. And by all means don't forget as you dial in your groups you may have to adjust your sights. Have fun
Oh, and your nipple should settle down, it is definetly not musket caps. There are a few different nipples used on the CVA's if you don't like the way they feel or fit you could change it out. But if they are sliding on there without too much effort and firing the way they should {snap, boom} I would keep goin and see what happens it might wear in and get better for ya. I would much rather have caps fit tight than loose

 

[Slamfire]

There is a huge difference between # 11 caps and musket caps. There ain't no mistakin' the difference. It could be another brand would fit yore nipple better. #10 caps look the same, but are a bit smaller, could you have gotten them by mistake? :v

 

[arcticap]

The caps that Remington used to package in the white and green tins about 10 years ago were very oversized. Their old #10 caps fit a standard #11 nipple, and their old #11 caps would fit oversized nipples that were like #12's (if there was such a thing).
Some guns had nipples that only the oversized Remington #11's would fit, as if there were different nipple standards depending on the maker.
I still see these older Remington caps available at gunshows sometimes, they have a clear, golden colored primer material.
But the size of today's nipples and caps do seem to be much more uniform.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Nice photos! IMO you might want to try 60-70 grains of powder in that slow-twist barrel. Your groups, especially from the bench, should tighten-up so that in the majority of cases the holes come really close or touch each other.

Just a small piece of advice, and you probably already know to do it this way, but for the sake of all who don't here goes: Consistant results are obtained by consistant acts, in other words, DO EVERYTHING THE SAME! Even something as small as how many times you tap the ball to finish seating it, or taping the side of the gun to settle the charge in the breech can make a difference! Same goes for brand of ball, brand & size of patch, how much lube, how long has the powder been exposed to the elements, and on and on.

I pre-measure and pre-load all my charges before I drive to the range. I use those little red plastic tubes that I bought from Dixon's in PA. When you use your powder measure, do you tap the side of it to settle the charge and then top it off to get really uniform quantity that you visually inspect under ideal lighting conditions? This variable alone could rob you of accuracy .

Bottom line is every time you do anything, do it the SAME. And don't move your sights until you get 3 holes touching...then move the good group by adjusting the sights.

Have a happy, healthy & safe holiday.

May all your groups be small and HAVE FUN MAKING SMOKE .

Dave

 

[Jac Spring]

Thanks y'all! The consensus is to drop down in charge, so I'll definately go that route. I've been shooting 80 grains in my 50 cal with good results but I didn't have any experience with the larger 54 caliber. Again, this is a 1-66" twist barrel and will see only prb's in it's bore.

I was pretty consistent in my loading but of course was changing up with different loads and patches.

I'd say the nipple is probably 10% bigger at the top than the #11's are at their bottem and this shows when seated - they are always off to one side and slightly tilted. I'll try a box of Remingtons and see how that goes - then, perhaps a new nipple would be in order.

I was using a measure but I wasn't tapping it to settle the powder - will do that next time too.

Again, thanks y'all for the good advice and council :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I think you begin with 55 grains of FFg, for any target shooting, working up and down in 5 grain increments to find the load that shoots the most consistently. Use a Chronograph to save you from hours of frustration. If you don't have one, burrow one, or buy one. The Chrony runs about $80.

Do use a overpowder wad to protect your patch and seal the gases. You get a much better SDV, and smaller groups. The powder also burns more efficiently, leaving less residue. Try running a lubed patch down the barrel after seating the PRB. You will see a small increase in velocity, but the SDV will drop down also, meaning that you have eliminated another factor that affects groups.

ML shooting is not about speed shooting, as you must have learned about before now. Don't use musket caps. More is NOT better! If you will fire that percussion cap off in an empty barrel at night, or in a dark garage, you will see flame coming out the muzzle about a foot, using just standard caps. The only reason we have " Magnum " caps, and musket caps is to ignite substitute powders, and paper cartridge BP loads, where sometimes, some paper does get down and blocks the flashchannel. The subs require a much hotter flame because they have a higher ignition temperature, another reason NOT TO use them.

Unless you are a masochist, there is no need to be beating your shoulder up target shooting. That 70 grain load is way heavy for that kind of work. All the ball has to do is pierce the paper of your target to score. You are not killing the backstop! For a hunting load, 1.5 times caliber will give you a good range of loads. No need to be shooting 100 plus grains of powder- most of that increase will be burning out in front of the muzzle- unless you think you will be frightening the deer to death, or need to start a forest fire during deer season! I don't know that barrel's length, but a 32 inch barrel in .54 caliber will burn a maximum of 85 grains. Your best accurcay will usually be found about 10 grains less than that maximum charge. So, I would recommend a hunting load of 75 grains plus or minus 5 grains. Remember that the lead round ball weighs 230 grains. It is going to completely penetrate a deer on any broadside shot out to 100 yards, even with your target load, and still flatten out to a quarter or larger sized piece of lead in the process. How dead do you need to kill a deer? Save your shoulder and concentrate on being an accurate shooter, and you will take home venison.

 

[Runner]

Paul, on a factory CVA breech, you can pop all the caps you want, and you will never see flame at the barrel muzzle. You can drill the nipple out, and you still will not see even a flash at the muzzle. I been popping caps CVA guns in the dark for 30 years, and I have never seen a flash at the muzzle.
I went as far as using the nipple that opens up and holds a small magnum pistol primer trying to get consistant ignition and better accuracy. Waste of time and money. Learn the gun you have and you don't need all of that.
On a CVA breech, it is important that the clean out screw be removed and the channel cleaned with something like a q-tip. Then pop a couple of caps on the nipple. I pop the last one with the ramrod down patched with a piece of paper. If things are good, the paper will be scorched. When I am hunting, I remove the screw a second time and add a 2 grain prime under the nipple after the gun is loaded. If the cap goes off, so will the gun, everytime. Black is a much better powder, but it is not completely foolproof in the Mountain rifle either. When hunting, I put a 2 grain prime under the nipple, even when using black.
This can be fixed, but it takes modifications that require removing the drum and breech plug. The CVA breech is strong and it works very well, but it takes learning to use it if you are used to guns that are different than the CVA.

 

[silverfox]

If I remember right the paper work that came with my Mountain Rifle stated 110 gr. max. As for the nipple take it out and put it in a electric drill, get a small file and turn it to fit your caps. It sounds like the top of your nipple is battered you need to fix that. Shouldn't take over 5 minutes. Also while your at it file the top so the hammer hits flat on the nipple. Take all the good advise you got and have a grand time with your new rifle.
Fox :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

That maximum charge the company lists has to do with the entire gun, as they are concerned about claims that the stock has split, or developed a crack at the tang, etc. in addition to any damage to the barrel. 110 grains is way less than the proof loads used, and those guns can actually stand up to shooting much bigger powder charges. I am not so sure, however, that the stocks can take that kind of recoil forces.

The maximum amount of powder a barrel will burn is based on a formula, which is 11.5 grains of powder per cubic inch of bore. To find that out, first divide the bore diameter( .54) by 2, to get the radius. ( .27) Then Square the radius( .27 x .27 =
.0729.) Now, multiply that number by " Pi "(3.1416 x .0729= .229.) Now Multiply that number times 11.5 grains( .229 x 11.5 = 2.634) Then multiply the number times the length of your barrel. ( example, 32 inch barrel is: 32 x 2.634 = 84.288 grains.((85 grains for our purposes.)).

I own a CVA shotgun, that does not have the patent breech of the Mountain rifle, and I can assure you that I do see flame coming out of the muzzle of the 30 inch barrels at night. I used to own a drum and nipple style rifle where the flame from the cap had to make two right angle bends to head down the barrel, and it also shot out plenty of flame using standard percussion caps.

 

[Jac Spring]

More good advice - thank you all for the help!

This rifle has the two right angle turns - first in the drum from the nipple and then at the end of the drum into the breech.

I did chuck the nipple in my drill press and used a file to take down the burrs and then emory paper- the #11 caps are still very snug but seem to go on straight now.

I had no problems with ignition at all. I am using CCI magnum caps (cause that's what I had on hand) and Graf's ffg black. I'll try some standard #11's next time out - I bought some today. Was going to get some wonder wads too but Cabela's doesn't even stock em for anything over 45 cal!

Track of the Wolf has my order now - those and some more ox yoke prelubed .015" patches.

I did try one load of 120 grains - pretty stout load! No cracks in the tang or stock.

But as said, I'm wratcheting down to see about best accuracy - and I do own a Chrony, so may put that to use too, but the proof's on the paper.

:hatsoff:

 

[Runner]

Supposedly, if you cone the plug back to the drum channel/chamber, the gun will become even more consistant, accurate, and dependable. I am rebuilding a CVA Hawken right now. I put the barrel in a vise and used the 4 foot adjustable on the plug. I did not go crazy trying to move it, but it isn't going to come out easy! I have four Hawken barrels, so I am doing my learning steps on them instead of the Mountain rifle barrel.

 

[Slake]

welding supply houses sell {cheap too} a neat little tool for cleaning torch tips that work great on nipples and the touchhole

 

[Runner]

Paul, which shotgun do you have? Mine has the snail type breech plug with a different patent breech setup. I would love to find one with a straight plug!

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I'll go along with the crowd, drop the charge some and use a wad or wadding of some sort under PRB, should do better. by the way an '06 case holds around 70 grs. 3F.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Arnt nipples fun to play with!!?! :grin:

I swapped the bobcat nipple out and put in my brothers drilled out ss nipple and now she goes boom everytime. I think you're shooting way to much powder, even though mine is a .45, with the 225 grain powerbelts @ 100 yards im dead on with 60 grains. Drop it down some and see what happens. You may also want to lube your patchs up a bit. Always have to redope my patchs in my traditions flintlock. That pig eats 110 grains fffg powder and needs the added lube to keep in center.

 

[merdean]

I'll put in my 2 cents. One of my rifles is a CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifle in .54cal. It has a 1/66 twist. It shoots 3 shot cloverleaf groups with 80gr ffg or Pyrodex. I use .530RB and .015 patches. Mine also shoots Maxi Balls well! (Then it does kick!) I changed nipples because I could not get CCI caps to seat properly. The one that came with the gun was pretty much oversize. Solved that problem. Work up a good load. That is the fun of it. Good shooting!