Davis lock

[Gemoke]

I have two Davis tulle locks,on my french fusils and have the same problem with both of them, I have asked Davis but as of yet have not gotten a response. here it is after I take a few shots with a new flint or even one with lets say 20 shots on it the frizen will not open all the way the guns will go off most of the time but no mater what I try the frizens will not work like they should. I use 7/8 english flints from TOW. I have had a chambers lock and it always worked the way it was supposed to. by the way both guns are from the same builder I sent one of them back to him and he sent it back saying he had the problem fixed but when I took it out to the range it worked the same way. .after I take them home and clean them up they work fine. by the way both are hard on flints, I maybe get 50 to 60 shots out of a flint can anyone offer any help.

 

[dlemaster]

Sounds like you may need to lighten your frizzen spring a little.

Regards, Dave

 

[Many Klatch]

Back in the day, the word was that Davis locks always needed a half shoe of file soldered over the face of the frizzen to make it spark right. I had one that worked pretty good with the file facing.

Many Klatch

 

[Mike Brooks]

Your frizzen is probably rebounding. put a piece of paper on the spring and see if the frizzen marks it. 50 or 60 shots out of a flint is pretty good in my book.

 

[Wehrmacht]

Mike,

I haven't seen the photos,but I understand that someone at Friendship recently had rapid frame photos showing the frizzens on several different locks opening all the way and then closing down on the flint then opening up all the way again.Aparently this was going through several cycles when fired. Aparently this can account for broken flints also. Are you familiar with this?

 

[Mike Brooks]

Yep, any rebounding frizzen is hard on flints.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Gemoke: The spring under the frizzen has only one job. That is to keep the frizzen closed, regardless of the attitude the gun is put in, when you have primed the pan. Nothing more is needed by the way of spring tension. It is not part of the firing sequence.

To test where the problem lies, take the frizzen spring out of the gun, and then prime the pan, lower the frizzen, and fire the gun. Without the spring, the frizzen will open, and then slap back on the edge of the flint. But, considering its weight, it should not do much if any damage to the edge. If the lock sparks, and trows the sparks into the pan, and open the frizzen, then it is more probably true than not that the frizzen spring is too strong, and needs to be lightened.

Before jumping to that conclusion, inspect the contact surfaces of the heel of the frizzen- removed from the bridle, it looks like a spanish or cowboy style boot, with a high heel- and the spot on the frizzen Spring's upper arm where the heel rubs when opening and closing. These two surfaces should be polished to a mirror finish, and then lubricated with a good oil or synthetic grease. But more important, the spot on the spring should be the HIGH Spot, so that the heel is not " climbing" or stacking up tension as it opens. Sometimes you observe the spring continuing to rise from the V past the contact point. That needs to be changed- either by flattening the angle of the spring( heat and bend) or turning the end of the spring arm down, or cutting it off! Check the shape of the heel. Often the problem is not in the spring arm, but in the shape of the heel. The back of the heel( think Laredo style cowboy boot) should angle or arc to its highest point when the spring is closed. The flat of the heel, such as it might be should be resting fully on the spring arm when the frizzen is closed, but open quickly when it is struck by the edge of the flint. To do that, the arc at the back of the heel has to be shaped so it " falls away" from the spring arm just as soon as the frizzen begins to open.

Now to reducing spring tension.

If you find that all these things don't cure the problem you are having, use a trigger pull gauge, or other scale, to test just how much tension( strength) is being put on your frizzen by that V-spriing. Hook the scales arm over the top of the frizzen, and while watching the scale, slowly pull the scale forward until the frizzen opens. Note the weight on the scale at the point of release.

That springs need no more than 3 lbs. of tension to do its job. You can weight the frizzen. It is well under 1 lb in weight. Most are under 1/2 lb.( 8oz.) A 3 lb spring will hold it closed in any position, except maybe if you are using the gun as a club! Yipes! That hurts even to type it. If you are using that gun for a club, you have many more problems to worry about than a frizzen staying closed, and whatever you may hit with the gun is going to do damage to much more critical parts of the gun than the frizzen or frizzen spring.

Check the lock plate to see if any part of the spring is rubbing agsint it. If so, grind or file away those burrs. Take another reading with your scale, now that you have removed any reason for the spring arm to rub or drag against the lock plate. Most current springs are cast, they have a bulbous bottom behind the "V" where the two arms meet. file or grind that off. Take your time and don't over heat that spring with your grinder. Use your fingers to hold the spring while using the grinder, and they will burn before you get the spring hot enough to destory the temper or hardening. Check the weight again with the scale. This is a lot of trial and error work, as you slowly reduce the strength of the spring. Not that only the upper arm moves, or "works", So you can ignore the bottom arm all together. To further reduce that upper arm, after I have filed or ground that bottom so that it looks like a spring made by heating up and bending a piece of flat steel stock, even in thickness around the bend, I like to draw a line from the bottom of the " V " to the top of the upper arm where contact is made with the frizzen heel. This is not the exact end of the spring, so leave about 1/16" between the outside edge of the heel and the side of the spring arm you are going to grind away. Grind down slowly the metal that is outside the line, making the spring arm beveled or wider at the bottom than at the end of the arm. Test the spring as you remove metal. My brother's lock has a V-spring that is under 2 lbs. and it works great, give great sparks, holds his frizzen in place, and opens like an electric door instantly when it is touched. Mine is between 2 and 3 lbs. and works for me. I may take it down some more, but like everyone who works on springs, I get a little nervous when I am reducing that tension so low. Its human nature to believe that the factory made that spring that way for a purpose! Right? ( They make them that way so they are virtually indestructable, on advice of their products Liability attorneys. If some customer has the springs worked over by someone like me, the work is instantly seen, and they have a defense to any lawsuit. Why anyone would sue a parts manufacturer over a $5.00 part is beyond me, but I am only a country lawyer. )

Once you get tht frizzen spring tension down, everything lubed, and oiled, it should work like a jewel bearing watch. You will prbably want to turn your attention to the mainspring, which should also be reduced, if you would save expensive flints, and get 80 or more shots per flint, as some members here do all the time( some are getting 120 and more strikes per flint!), However that is another topic. If you get to that point, PM me and i will take you through it. I have done so with several members here in the past year, and all are reporting better lock functions, and better scores.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Gemoke: The spring under the frizzen has only one job. That is to keep the frizzen closed, regardless of the attitude the gun is put in, when you have primed the pan. Nothing more is needed by the way of spring tension. It is not part of the firing sequence.

To test where the problem lies, take the frizzen spring out of the gun, and then prime the pan, lower the frizzen, and fire the gun. Without the spring, the frizzen will open, and then slap back on the edge of the flint. But, considering its weight, it should not do much if any damage to the edge. If the lock sparks, and trows the sparks into the pan, and open the frizzen, then it is more probably true than not that the frizzen spring is too strong, and needs to be lightened.

Before jumping to that conclusion, inspect the contact surfaces of the heel of the frizzen- removed from the bridle, it looks like a spanish or cowboy style boot, with a high heel- and the spot on the frizzen Spring's upper arm where the heel rubs when opening and closing. These two surfaces should be polished to a mirror finish, and then lubricated with a good oil or synthetic grease. But more important, the spot on the spring should be the HIGH Spot, so that the heel is not " climbing" or stacking up tension as it opens. Sometimes you observe the spring continuing to rise from the V past the contact point. That needs to be changed- either by flattening the angle of the spring( heat and bend) or turning the end of the spring arm down, or cutting it off! Check the shape of the heel. Often the problem is not in the spring arm, but in the shape of the heel. The back of the heel( think Laredo style cowboy boot) should angle or arc to its highest point when the spring is closed. The flat of the heel, such as it might be should be resting fully on the spring arm when the frizzen is closed, but open quickly when it is struck by the edge of the flint. To do that, the arc at the back of the heel has to be shaped so it " falls away" from the spring arm just as soon as the frizzen begins to open.

Now to reducing spring tension.

If you find that all these things don't cure the problem you are having, use a trigger pull gauge, or other scale, to test just how much tension( strength) is being put on your frizzen by that V-spriing. Hook the scales arm over the top of the frizzen, and while watching the scale, slowly pull the scale forward until the frizzen opens. Note the weight on the scale at the point of release.

That springs need no more than 3 lbs. of tension to do its job. You can weight the frizzen. It is well under 1 lb in weight. Most are under 1/2 lb.( 8oz.) A 3 lb spring will hold it closed in any position, except maybe if you are using the gun as a club! Yipes! That hurts even to type it. If you are using that gun for a club, you have many more problems to worry about than a frizzen staying closed, and whatever you may hit with the gun is going to do damage to much more critical parts of the gun than the frizzen or frizzen spring.

Check the lock plate to see if any part of the spring is rubbing agsint it. If so, grind or file away those burrs. Take another reading with your scale, now that you have removed any reason for the spring arm to rub or drag against the lock plate. Most current springs are cast, they have a bulbous bottom behind the "V" where the two arms meet. file or grind that off. Take your time and don't over heat that spring with your grinder. Use your fingers to hold the spring while using the grinder, and they will burn before you get the spring hot enough to destory the temper or hardening. Check the weight again with the scale. This is a lot of trial and error work, as you slowly reduce the strength of the spring. Not that only the upper arm moves, or "works", So you can ignore the bottom arm all together. To further reduce that upper arm, after I have filed or ground that bottom so that it looks like a spring made by heating up and bending a piece of flat steel stock, even in thickness around the bend, I like to draw a line from the bottom of the " V " to the top of the upper arm where contact is made with the frizzen heel. This is not the exact end of the spring, so leave about 1/16" between the outside edge of the heel and the side of the spring arm you are going to grind away. Grind down slowly the metal that is outside the line, making the spring arm beveled or wider at the bottom than at the end of the arm. Test the spring as you remove metal. My brother's lock has a V-spring that is under 2 lbs. and it works great, give great sparks, holds his frizzen in place, and opens like an electric door instantly when it is touched. Mine is between 2 and 3 lbs. and works for me. I may take it down some more, but like everyone who works on springs, I get a little nervous when I am reducing that tension so low. Its human nature to believe that the factory made that spring that way for a purpose! Right? ( They make them that way so they are virtually indestructable, on advice of their products Liability attorneys. If some customer has the springs worked over by someone like me, the work is instantly seen, and they have a defense to any lawsuit. Why anyone would sue a parts manufacturer over a $5.00 part is beyond me, but I am only a country lawyer. )

Once you get tht frizzen spring tension down, everything lubed, and oiled, it should work like a jewel bearing watch. You will prbably want to turn your attention to the mainspring, which should also be reduced, if you would save expensive flints, and get 80 or more shots per flint, as some members here do all the time( some are getting 120 and more strikes per flint!), However that is another topic. If you get to that point, PM me and i will take you through it. I have done so with several members here in the past year, and all are reporting better lock functions, and better scores.

 

[rich pierce]

Paul covered it. I generally find that the camming action is off as well as frizzen spring power being too great. If it does not "roll over" and fly open at a certain point, then either the "tit" on the frizzen or the spring needs reshaping.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I find rebounding gets worse as the frizzen spring is lightened. You could be compounding your problem. Better check to se if it is indeed rebounding or just not opening all the way.
My old Davis Jeager lock was a horrible rebounder. You could here the frizzen slaping back and forth after every shot. In this case it was rebounding off of the top jaw instead of the flint. The frizzen spring was real light on that lock.

 

[Stophel]

I am not a fan of feather light frizzen springs. I have also noticed a lot of rebounding on a really light-springed L&R Lock I had several years ago. I seriously doubt this Davis lock is rebounding anyway. He says it doesn't open all the way. Strictly speaking, it doesn't matter, but I can't stand it when this happens (and it happens with a LOT of locks). The culprit is USUALLY the shape of the frizzen spring (one of the worst offenders is the Siler lock, with its frizzen spring curved up like a ski ramp). This lock, however, usually doesn't have that problem. The Davis "Tulle" spring is generally nice and straight and nearly level, which is the ideal. I would think that the problem may simply be in the roughness of the parts. Another possibility may lie in the frizzen screw. It may not shoulder out properly, and it might be clamping the frizzen in place.

"Only" 50 or 60 shots per flint!?! I'd be incensed!

 

[redwing]

This sounds pretty simple to me You shoot from 5 to 20 on a rock and it works ok. Then the frizzen does not open all the way? Just try moving the flint forward in the jaws, the frizzen will open. On a new gun some time a little oil on the frizzen hinge screw will help. You didn't say if you were knaping the rocks and how? Hard on flints 50 to 60 on a BEF an't too bad. Before you jump into all that complex stuff try some simple cures. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The only lock I have seen with a rebounding frizzen and light frizzen spring had casting seams on the bottom of the toe so that the toe did not sit flush and flat on the spring when it openned, but rather sat up on the burrs. Once I removed those, and filed the toe to a nice flat, even surface, the rebounding stopped. It only took about two minutes to fix, and about 30 minutes to diagnose! Of course, the next time it won't take so long to figure it out. The heel of the frizzen has to be tall enough, too, or the frizzen will not stay open. Some file too much or polish too much on that heel, thinking that if they lower its height that will lighten the tension on the spring by not compressing the spring so much, and they can avoid touching the spring. That requires either a spot of weld to build the heel up, or a new frizzen! to fix. I was shown a lock that was repaired after a prior owner had filed too much on the wrong thing.

 

[squirejohn]

Gemoke - I think redwing nailed it. One of my Davis locks acts the same way when the flint gets too short of if it is placed so it hits very low on the frizzen. If the gun fires when the frizzen doesn't open all the way, which it does most of not all the time, I leave it alone until the flint needs knapping or replacing.