different point of aim

[Mark Sluka]

I have A t/c hawken 50 cal flintlock and i am shooting a patched roundball over 90 grains of 3f.Anyway,I went to the range yesterday to sight it in. I used sandbags and zeroed it in at 50 yards.then i sat down with my back against a tree and resting my arms against my knees to simulate a hunting situation. I got softball sized groups at the same distance. However, the pattern was about 6 inches to the right of the groups i got off of the bench so i resighted it.I was just wondering if anyone else has exprrienced a different point of impact from the bench vs field conditions?

 

[Rebel]

Yep/ When you sight in off the bench try putting your left hand on top of the sandbags and then hold the forearm in that hand like you would hunting. Don't rest the stock directly on the bags. See if that helps you any.

 

[roundball]

I have A t/c hawken 50 cal flintlock and i am shooting a patched roundball over 90 grains of 3f.Anyway,I went to the range yesterday to sight it in. I used sandbags and zeroed it in at 50 yards.then i sat down with my back against a tree and resting my arms against my knees to simulate a hunting situation. I got softball sized groups at the same distance. However, the pattern was about 6 inches to the right of the groups i got off of the bench so i resighted it.I was just wondering if anyone else has exprrienced a different point of impact from the bench vs field conditions?

Yes, I've experienced the same thing...the whole recoil arc is different when you get up off of the bench because your body can "give" more and the muzzle is in a slightly different place at muzzle exit compared to be locked down pretty solid on a bench...after any bench zeroing I think it's important to fine tune POI from the most common hunting position you'll normally use to take a shot...like you just did...and groups won't be a tight of course but they'll be centered where they need to be for hunting

 

[Gemoke]

It`s called flinters flinch just practice more off hand shooting.

 

[roundball]

It`s called flinters flinch just practice more off hand shooting.

(he was sitting, elbows braced against his knees, tweaked his sights to rezero the POI after moving from the bench, and all is well again)

 

[Many Klatch]

90 grains in a 50 might make anyone flinch, but a flinch is normally down and to the left not to the right. Try the bench but this time put your hand on the sand bag and the gun in your hand like Rebel said.

You might want to back the load down to 70 grains. I don't know if you have snow where you are, but try shooting over fresh snow. Look to see if there is a lot of unburned powder sitting on top of the snow. If there is that will tell you that you are using too much powder.

Many Klatch

 

[tg]

A lead flint wrap would probably take care of the problem.....or maybe a particular way of pricking the vent hole...3f or 2f?

 

[roundball]

"...try shooting over fresh snow. Look to see if there is a lot of unburned powder sitting on top of the snow. If there is that will tell you that you are using too much powder..."

Manny, not taking issue with you personally, just offering another possible viewpoint...IMO I question that what might be seen falling on white snow or a white sheet is unburned powder at all...I think its just fouling like that in the bore, and my reasoning is this.

If blackpowder ignites instantly from the little bit of heat generated by a mere tiny pan flash on a Flintlock, it seems that any kernels of powder that somehow managed to exit the bore intact would then be easily consumed in the couple feet of expanding intense flame and heat of the muzzle blast that they are contained in.

As a result, and not knowing how unburned powder could survive that blast furnace, I believe the stuff that might fall out of all that flame and intense heat is nothing more than fouling residue / debris.

Just my .02 cents...

 

[mykeal]

"...try shooting over fresh snow. Look to see if there is a lot of unburned powder sitting on top of the snow. If there is that will tell you that you are using too much powder..."

Manny, not taking issue with you personally, just offering another possible viewpoint...IMO I question that what might be seen falling on white snow or a white sheet is unburned powder at all...I think its just fouling like that in the bore, and my reasoning is this.

If blackpowder ignites instantly from the little bit of heat generated by a mere tiny pan flash on a Flintlock, it seems that any kernels of powder that somehow managed to exit the bore intact would then be easily consumed in the couple feet of expanding intense flame and heat of the muzzle blast that they are contained in.

As a result, and not knowing how unburned powder could survive that blast furnace, I believe the stuff that might fall out of all that flame and intense heat is nothing more than fouling residue / debris.

Just my .02 cents...

It may be only 2 cents (".02 cents" is 2 hundreths of a cent, which is 2 ten thousandths of a dollar...) but it's worth quite a bit more...

Actually you're both right. Depending on things like caliber, length of barrel, type of bullet, lube, etc., as you increase the amount of powder in the load there will come a point where uncombusted powder will exit the barrel. Most of this will burn outside, increasing the amount of smoke and flame seen. Keep increasing the load and the amount of uncombusted powder that does NOT get burned outside the barrel will start to increase as well. You can pretty much predict both points using a chronograph - the readings will fall off out of proportion to the increase in load at first, then become wholly unreliable as more unburned powder goes through the trap.

Pistols and revolvers are the most likely to exhibit this "phenomenon", of course. I've never tried to measure it, but I've heard estimates of as much as 50% of the load is not burned based on conservation of mass and energy calculations. Maybe or maybe not, but certainly some powder is wasted with the heavy loads.

 

[LRB]

I think you nailed the problem TG. A lead wrap would cure his problem, surely. The red-orange sparks are too slow to ignite the prime, and he is letting the gun drift, waiting for it to fire!!
Seriously though, most right handed people will steer to the right with a flintlock, until they over come the hesitation of ignition. You may think it is instant, but your sub-concious brain knows different, and does not like the situation. It takes practice, and familiararity with your gun. I still sometimes do it myself. When I have one of those days, I just aim a tad left. I will say though, using the position this guy is using, I usually hit. Even on a bad day.

 

[roundball]

A lead flint wrap would probably take care of the problem.....or maybe a particular way of pricking the vent hole...3f or 2f?

:grin:

 

[wvbuckbuster]

A tight hold is helpful as well. :thumbsup:

 

[torn moc]

I'll take a LEAD WRAP and
a shotofmoonshine :rotf: anytime
and Keep a tight hold on the Moonshine!!!!!

 

[markinstettler]

I concur with Wick. I'm left-handed. My flinch (which may or may not have been cured) is always down and to the left. From a sitting position, arms supported by knees, my flinch was still alive and well.

As I've stated in another post, and is fairly common knowledge around here, dry-firing with a wood "flint" will make a flinch obvious and be a good way of treating the problem.

 

[worker11811]

Has anybody considered parallax?

You've got to hunker down on the gun the EXACT same way every time. If your cheek isn't at the exact same place on the stalk and your eye isn't at the exact same point of view behind the sight, you won't get the same accuracy from one shot to the next.

Even though I'm new to muzzle loading, I shoot .22 ca. smallbore silhouettes. The same principle applies whether you're shooting open sights or a scope. Parallax (change in the apparent point of impact which varies in relation to the viewer's line of sight through the sighting system) will rear its ugly head if you're not looking through the sight exactly the same way each time.

When you're on the bench, you'll instinctively line your head up differently than when you're shooting offhand.

One trick I used to cure myself of "bad hold" was to put a piece of white adhesive tape on the stock in the place right where my cheekbone hits the comb of the stock. I made sure my face touched that piece of tape in the exact same spot every time.

Think of it like a "kisser" on a bowstring.

 

[bart_anastasi]

I have talked about this with a target shooter friend of mine a number of times after having the same experiance.

When you shoot off a rest or bench or laying down the position of your eyes and face in relation to your rear sight is going to change that is one thing.

The other is that the way your body takes up the guns recoile is going to be different since you are wedged against the gun in a different position.

You might find that you shoot higher standing since the muzzle rises a bit more fireing from you shoulder standing than when the gun is being held down against a rest.

It mite not make a whole difference shooting 50 yards but he explained that at 1000 yards ouch.

 

[AK in PA]

When I shot the junior rifle program as a kid, DCM/NRA service rifle matches, and now blackpowder, my vertical impact has often been subtley different between bench and offhand positions.