Differnce between early and late Lancasters

[kswan]

Hello all.
Just curious as to what the difference betweeen an early and late lancaster would be and what years they would been built.

Thanks

 

[msb]

I believe the late Lancaster has set triggers were the Lancaster has a single trigger. Also the Lancaster has a wider butt plate.

 

[Tom Compton]

About 20 years????? :haha:

 

[rich pierce]

If you are talking about kits then most early Lancaster kits represent 1770s to 1780s originals. Most Late Lancaster kits represent 1790s to possibly 1810 or so.

 

[kswan]

Yes, Im looking at kits from TVM.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

I have an early Lancaster (not TVM but custom build) and there are a number of differences between Early and Late Lancaster Rifles.

Ӣ Early Lancaster rifles had wider butt plate (about 2" wide) with very little curve. - late Lancaster versions were thinner and more deeply curved.

Ӣ different locks - mine uses an L&R Queen Anne Lock. These English locks were imported to the colonies by the barrel from mid-1600's until outbreak of hostilities. When the Rev War hit, different locks had to be used, so my lock would define my rifle as being made prior to the war. Early Germanic locks were also used in the Early Lancasters.

Ӣ no patchbox or wooden patchbox. Later versions were the thin brass patchbox up to the typical brass "daisy" patchbox. Golden-Age (late Lancaster) used pierced brass patchboxes (allowed wood to show through patchbox in various designs).

Ӣ Early Lancasters often just had incise carving instead of Rococo relief carving of later models.

Ӣ Heavier calibers. Early Lancasters were typically in the .50 to .54 range. Late Lancasters (Golden Age) were often .45 or less.

Ӣ As pointed out earlier, usually the early had a single trigger and the later had a double trigger set.

Both Early and Late had long, swamped barrels. Mine is a 44¾" swamped barrel. There were some shorter barrels such as Dickert's 39" barrel on at least one of his rifles.

All Lancasters have a ruler straight lower stock from wrist to butt. That's one of the defining features of the Lancaster architecture.

I think that's about it.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan

 

[Artificer]

Excellent list. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

I prefer the early rifles with the wide buttplates because they spread out the recoil over a larger butt plate area and the rifles are a bit heavier. This makes them more "recoil friendly," if you don't mind the added weight.

Gus

 

[Chowmif16]

I think another thing to add is a difference in architecture, particularly of the butt-stock.
Early guns with wide butt-plates had fairly chunky architecture in the comb-to-side dimension, as well as in the transition to the wrist.
As the butt-plates got narrower, the barrels got smaller etc, the wrist got skinnier, and the transition from the butt profile forward left a skinnier and overall, more graceful/pronounced transition to the wrist.

I also think that Germanic locks were used quite a bit, as opposed to English. Many of the Lancastrian and surrounding area gunsmiths were Moravian/Germanic, and used imported Germanic locks. You can see it in the lock mortises, even on guns that have been converted to percussion.

just my thoughts,
Cheers,
Chowmi

 

[fleener]

Are Christian Springs considered Lancasters?

Thanks
Fleener

 

[Chowmif16]

Not really, but the two towns were in close proximity and many of the gunsmiths either started in one town and ended up in the other, or, the other way around.
Christian's Spring was a Moravian settlement entirely run as a cooperative under the church, whilst Lancaster was not. However, there were Moravians in Lancaster, i.e. Dickert.

The point is, that there are many similarities, and more than likely there was communication between them as well as movement of masters and apprentices etc.
cheers,
Chowmi

 

[Onojutta]

Not really, but the two towns were in close proximity

Not close at all, especially by 18th century standards. While you're right about gunsmiths being exposed to other areas, migrating, etc. there were many other schools closer to Lancaster, e.g. York, Berks, Lehigh, even Emmitsburg, MD is just about as close or even closer to Lancaster than Christian Springs. Actually the more I think about it, I can't think of another original 18th century school that's further from Lancaster than Christian's Spring.

 

[kswan]

Thanks very much, that pretty well cleared up all my questions

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The labels "early" and "late Lancaster" used by TVM and other semi-custom makers are very generic and mostly used to differentiate between their products. There were roughly 3 periods useful for describing longrifles from Pennsylvania, early or colonial (?-1780 or so), golden age (1780-1810 or so), and late (1810-whenever). The earlier the period the more likely the gun has robust Germanic styling because the gun makers were either just off the boat from Europe or part of the first generation born in America. Thicker butts, often simple German baroque and rococo carving motifs (but sometimes quite elaborate), larger caliber barrels, imported locks from Germany, Belgium, England, and sometimes France. During the Rev War years handmade locks were more common but that did not last very long. Wooden lidded patchboxes were common but so were 2 and 4-piece brass boxes. Golden ages rifles tended to have smaller calibers, thinner stocks often with carving that was sometimes elaborate but composed of simplified rococo and baroque motifs. The guns were generally slimmer, almost petite. Metal inlays became more common. Wooden patchbox lids mostly disappeared during this period. During the late period, butts were quite thin, buttplates were more curved, calibers generally were small, locks imported or manufactured by specialized local lockmakers, carving degenerated and mostly disappeared, metal inlays became profuse. The best carving was done during the colonial and golden age periods. During the golden age, makers who were trained or worked during the colonial period tended to be better carvers than the next generation of makers. By the beginning of the percussion era, the artistic qualities of Lancaster rifles was mostly gone with a few exceptions. Set triggers were used during all periods but they became more common during the later part of the golden age. Locks reflected the technology of the times with many of the latest improvements developed in Europe eventually showing up on American guns. During all periods, hardware was almost universally brass and the vast majority of stocks were maple.

dave

 

[Pete G]

As a general rule the early guns had heavier architecture and less ornamentation. An early style might have a wooden patchbox cover or a simple two piece box. The late guns were generally built within the period known as the "Golden Age" and were slimmer and had more extensive carving, engraving and inlays. By then the patchbox had evolved into the four piece with side plates and often multiple piercings.

Personally I prefer the earlier style because they usually have more of an understated elegance.

 

[Zonie]

My version of a "Late Lancaster" based on a Fordney rifle (1840's ?).




My early attempt to make a "Early Lancaster".



Note that both rifles have straight combs and the underside of the stock is straight.
This is one of the things that differentiate the Lancaster's from the other Pennsylvania rifles.

Less obvious, the rail on the trigger guards of older guns usually stood off some distance from the wrist.

The later guns trigger guard rail often was very close to the wrist.

This trigger guard rail shape/position is not unique to the Lancaster. It was common to all of the Pennsylvania rifles and is one of the easiest things to spot when someone asks about the age of a rifle.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Those are considered "Christian Springs" rifles not Lancasters. Lancaster is a specific town in PA and the surrounding area is included. Christian Springs is a slightly different area although not too far away. The early guns from each were fairly similar but by the early to mid-1770's were significantly different. So they would not be referred to as Lancasters.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan

 

[hanshi]

Not to add anything else about the early/late Lancaster description; but just my impression of the Christian Springs/Lancaster divide. I've always thought of the Christian Springs rifle to be more of a "link" between the Jaeger and longrifle. They seem to me to have elements of both.

 

[Zonie]

Although many don't like the term Pecatonica River uses for their "Transition Rifle", there is little doubt in my mind that it is based on a early Christian Spring's gun.

Below is a picture of both the "Early Lancaster" and the "Transitional Rifle" I built and although the Transitional rifle is much more Jaeger like with its shorter barrel and its stout wrist, the similarities of the comb cannot be ignored.

 

[kswan]

Thanks Dave for that very accurate description.

 

[kswan]

Thanks for taking the time to post some pics for us.