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Doc Help: Landsknecht Matchlock Pistol?

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You know you're absolutely right ,people gift items to museums thinking it's the best thing to do, to share interesting and beautiful artifacts with everyone, truth of the matter is the museums get asset rich and the items are lost in storage never to be seen again. Such a shame. I grew up in Sheffield (UK) we have a long history of knife and sword making and when I was growing up I used to spend a lot of my time browsing the displays in the local museum. They had a wonderful exhibit room dedicated to this, knives and swords from all over the world, it was like a treasure cave! ...All disappeared into storage as it's not PC now to display weapons.The exhibits now are all themed and a bit 'anticeptic' looking and dare I say boring. It's as though they're ashamed of their heritage.Great pity.
 
Gentlemen: Match locks, Wheel locks and other primitive firearms are welcome in this forum area.

Martini's, Mausers and machine guns are not.

Please do not get sidetracked with discussions about modern weapons.

Thanks.
 
Thanks Zonie.

Now I have to say that I still haven't seen any authenticated Euro matchlock pistols, but I have seen some very, very wishful reasoning.

I have since I joined this forum been privileged to visit the armoury at Graz, zastava Konipiste, Nelahozeves, the Military Museum in Istanbul, the Tower of London, and perhaps best of all the Musee de l'Armee in Paris (last month).

I did not see battle scarring on a single pistol butt, and I was looking. Your ball-butted pistol is not a club; what is your thrice-blessed SWORD for???? The ball is for retention on horseback in melee.

There was no example of a matchlock pistol in any museum I saw, any of my modest library, or any credible internet post that I have seen.

What I have learned about in looking, is arms as fashionable decorators, especially in the 19th Century; fakes and make-ups for deceiving buyers and upgrading prices of composite real antiques.

I have learned that dogmatic statements like 'no x exist' where x is whatever, have a high risk of being wrong because a single example can disprove them. A good example of this is the claim that 'wheel-locks were too expensive and were never manufactured in large numbers'. Patently false when you have spent a few hours in the Graz armoury. Lots of matchlock muskets racked there, and lots of pistols. None of them are matchlock that I saw, but a saw a lot of wheellock rifles with matchlocks retrofitted and a real doozy of an obvious 19th century fantasy lock on a matchlock wall gun.



Association of objects can be very misleading. In Nelahozeves someone asked why there were drums in with the weapons in the armoury. The reason is not that they went drumming for driven game, but that the fashion for heroic displays in the 19th century meant the arms were arranged with flags and drums and stuff to look good according to the ideas of the day. Our ideas are different. Jeff Cooper's shooting school graduates cannot see a wheellock pistol the same way as a real landsknecht did. The landsknechten shown in the fan-art above are very tenuously connected with the real societies of the 16th century.
 
So what's your opinion on the pistol I have Per? I take it you've seen the link I posted to the Swiss musket? the lock appears to me to be genuine,even in the early 19th centuary it would have been quite an undertaking and something of a gamble to waste an antique lock into a wall decorater...(people assume firearm collecting is a modern passtime and that old guns were cheap in times gone by,not the case) there's evidence of it being fired with tarry deposits in places where it's difficult to put them,if you look at the underside of the pan cover you can see the swirls of countless passes of the cover over the pan...who would know to do that, and if it was a fantasy piece as you are suggesting, why would anyone bother? then again if it was a forgery why aren't there any any attempts at giving it any provenence in terms of makers names or barrel markings? I'm not disputing your learned assessment in any way, I'm just trying to reason it out in my own mind 'for and against'. John.

'I ought to know by this time that when a fact appears to be opposed to a long train of deductions it invariably proves to be capable of bearing some other interpretation.' (holmes)
 
Apologies Zonie,gettinga bit carried away there,forgetting I was on a dedicated forum and wasn't having a conversation. I joined because I believed I had something new to contribute with the matchlock I posted and was hoping to stimulate members opinions and thoughts in an attempt to clarify my own.... 'Hive mind' as Karl so succinctly puts it, but it seems the real experts only make their thoughts known when there's something negative to say. I'm not a matchlock enthusiast primarily and only own two examples,one of which is a decorator, I therefore have little else to say outside of these limited parameters. I don't profess to be an expert on any subject,life's much too short to me for that level of single mindedness, so I'll take my leave gracefully and apologise if I've unwittingly caused any offence.
 
I don't recall asking or even suggesting that anyone leave the forum.

If you, or anyone else took my request to avoid discussions of 20th century arms in this forum area as a request for you to leave that was not my intent.

Please continue with your discussions. :)

As you may notice, beyond doing a bit of moderating, I've kept my thoughts and opinions out of this. My knowledge of matchlocks and wheellocks is too limited for me to contribute anything of value in this topic. :)
 
jet car willy, I am no kind of real expert, just another keyboard warrior who reads a lot and travels when he can. I apologise that I seem negative to you.

What do I think your pistol is? Don't know. I had an opinion on the Brescian, but this one looks as you say like a banana-lockplate, doglock style pistol. The barrel and stock look worn and all like a pistol that has had a hard military life. The butt fills me with unhappiness because I have seen none like it in my books. Together with the apparent sheet-metal origins of the trigger-guard, I feel indicate its a later fabrication. The trigger looks like some 20th Century thing.

The lock itself I like a lot.

Someone made a remark about wear as an indication of age. In fact, there was a huge FASHION to artificially age antiques with hammers, chains, sandpaper and finishes. They called it 'distressing' a piece, and it was still in full flood in the 1960s, fading in the late 1970s.

I don't know how you came by this piece or who told what story, but I would not be surprised if a real expert found it to be a fantasy piece.
 
I know you didn't Zonie and once again I find myself apologizing if I've inadvertantly offended you in some way. The decision was mine because I felt that other than the subject on offer I had little else to say on the subject of matchlocks as I like you have limited knowledge in that area.My intention was to spark a debate, maybe even find a member who had knowledge enough to aid with some concrete data. For all I know someone out there knows of the existence of another similar example. Hell, it might even be one of a pair for all I know. Anyway it seems I've drawn someone out to the table so I'll give it another shot. :wink:
 
O.K. Chris here goes,I obtained it from the estate of a collector, I bought it from his son who was clearing his fathers effects and had little interest in antique firearms. His father had had a largish collection which he'd sold in the years leading up to his demise. But he kept back two of the weapons from his collection to pass on to his heirs. One was a flintlock Kentucky rifle signed Peter Brong....(beautiful) the other was this. He didn't leave any details about provenance, but he did leave a massive pile of books, so I think it reasonable to assume he had knowledge. Now you know what I know. As to what it is..I don't know, and neither do the experts, that's why I'm here,maybe I can learn something useful,maybe others can learn from what I learn, which is also why I'm here. If we don't question and accept the Status Quo how will we ever find things out? Karl made a good point when he pointed out a reason why there are so many wierd and wonderfull matchlocks and wheel locks around, because they were to wierd and wonderful to be of any real use on the battlefiels or too highly prized to be risked and didn't end up trampled in the mud and rusting away, that's not to say there weren't any 'ordinary' wheel lock pistols,but it might account for there not being any around. We don't know, so the accepted position is they did not exist. Accepted positions are quite often misleading as history proves. What do the experts say? I quote; " My initial impression is that the overall style is intended to be pre-1690; more English Civil War in fact with that butt. We have lots of late matchlock muskets with similar locks that we presume were intended for the ”˜Dad’s Army’ of the day, colonials etc! It can’t be military, I don’t think ”“ we’d have some evidence or other surviving example if so much as a trial had taken place. It could be a piece made by or for a civilian for range use at around that time. But to me it seems most likely to be an c1820 impression of what a c1690 m/l pistol might have looked like. The profile and length of the barrel and the manner of fore-stocking are more like a late flintlock, though the lock might well be an older carbine lock and the butt is similar to ECW era English, German, and Dutch styles. By the 1680s, pistols were pretty well exclusively club-butted (usually the spurred butt-cap).



In any case, a fascinating and antique piece in its own right ”“ if only we knew more about it! I take it there are no markings anywhere on the piece?

(hope that comes out OK it's copied and pasted from an e.mail I received from the Royal Armouries) Anyway, I still have my reservations as I've previously noted. I have the benefit of holding and studying this pistol at close quarters, I haven't disassembled it because until I've exhausted all other avenues of research I don't want to disturb anything. As to the sheet metal nature of the fittings, I'll post a couple of more detailed snaps, see what you think. One other thing which is slightly off topic which the moderator might hopefully allow me is a further example of why we shouldn't necessarily accept the standard view of things, I also own a tap action side by side single hammer,single trigger percussion pocket pistol by Bentley. No biggie I hear you say?... There are numerous eamples of s/s and o/u tap action flint pistols,with three and four barrels. There are four barrel tap action percussion,(double trigger of course) I've even managed to find a tap action o/u percussion pocket pistol, two in fact, but pretty much all side by side percussion pistols for reasons which are quite obvious are double trigger,double hammer. I have a little challenge for you, you've got all the books and have visited all the museums,..find me another.(Don't bother checking the Royal Armouries,they haven't got one either :)
 
matchlockpistol014_zpsa3aeb099.jpg
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As promised, details of furniture, iron, not sheet metal.
 
matchlockpistol006_zpsb096c7bb.jpg
[/URL][/img] The lock in greater detail,please look closely at the serpent and compare it to the Swiss musket on the link, the screw is of the same pattern. The tube is a very rare addition. Also on the previous photo study the underside of the pan cover and note the wear,bearing in mind the pan cover itself isn't heavy or tight,wear like that can only realistically be achieved by many years of handling. Welcome any constructive input from any member.
 
Swissmark_zps64456dbc.jpg
[/URL][/img] The only thing I've been able to find that bears any resemblance to a mark without disassembling the piece, it's on the trigger guard, there definately appers to be diamond shaped punch marking which is in an area which would be difficult to achieve accidentaly. As to the knocks and scuffs on the woodwork, that's anyones' guess, ranchers and cowhands used to use the butts of their Colts to hammer in nails on fence posts...who knows??
 
jet car willy - thank you (again) for posting those detailed pictures.

The lack of ball butt damage is curious.
SDC10026.JPG

The movers/custom inspectors decided to "test" one of my flintlock pistols when my household goods left Germany. Whatever they decided to hit with it when they took it out of the excessive padding did a number on it chipping both sides. Of course, since beating things with the butt can damage it so much maybe those pistols were thrown away or are in storage rather than on display.
Please ignore the Broomhandle in the picture except for scale. Yes, the wheellock is as big as a horse's leg even after I shaved it down to fit my hand.
 
Glad you're finding them interesting Karl. I find this pistol really intriguing,the patination is really even and stylewise it does fit in and around the dates mentioned,similar style butt to your wheel lock. I've been looking at a lot of German wheel locks from around the 17th cent. trying to find similarities,there was certainly some fabulous examples of German craftsmanship around at that time. I was considering what you said about arms used in battle being lost on the battlefield. Did you know that until the discovery of the Mary Rose there wasn't one surviving example of an English military longbow? How many thousands must have been made and yet not one was ever recognised as being authentic. Suppose they all ended up as something else,or rotting away in a field somewhere, or just firewood. That's a nice collection you have there,pity about your run in with the customs, I just had similar recently returning from a trip to the States. Nothing more than government licenced light fingered morons in my opinion. The Mauser looks nice,one of my favourites, but I'll not comment on that any further, forum rules, dont want to be a bad influence. :nono: Thanks for sharing, John. :)
 
Just to contribute a small bit, Claude Blair's Pistols of the World , 1968, The Viking Press, Inc, New York, N.Y. shows several pistols that have a similar grip shape.

They are Wheel locks and are listed as being German or Swedish: c, 1630. Livrustkammaren, Stolkholm (No. 1697), (Plate #35, #36).
They were apparently carried at the Battle of Lutzen (1632).

Later in the book in the section that shows various pistol grip shapes, this shape is identified by the author as being German, 1650-1675. (# O) page 178.
 
Think that's what's known as hiding your light under a bushel Zonie. You're not as dumb about this sort of stuff as you make out are you :wink: Thanks for that info,all the small things combined make something bigger,basic physics,I'll certainly check it out. You see "hive mind" in action, I believed I had something of English or American origin when I came to this forum. It seems increasingly like I was wrong and Europe is now the place to look ... maybe, (if it's real) let's not get too carried away here,... it came to England from Europe around the time of the ECW ? that'd fit. Wishfull reasoning on my part eh? Great input Zonie, and I promise not to mention anything about Fender or Ibanez or Triumph. :stir: :)
 
Lutzen!? That's the battle that Gustavus Adolphus The Great, Lion of the North, was killed in...

:(

This is 30-Years War Willy. Matchlock would have been state of the art though snaphaunces were available as well.
 
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