Doc Help: Landsknecht Matchlock Pistol?

[john wilson]

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Don't know whether you've come across this one on your travels Karl,also found a double barreled matchlock pistol (Indian though so not really relevant).

 

[robinghewitt]

Right, um, where were we?

You cannot reverse engineer a matchlock because when you look under a Littlecote lock plate you realise that it cannot possibly work. To understand how it does work you need to remember that wrought iron consists of alternate layers of iron and slag. The slag is glass hard and virtually friction free. Nothing like modern steel which will gall and seize up if you dare let it rub.

Modern matchlock makers have this modern idea that the tricker needs to lift the back end of the long lever and they forget to pull on it. Seriously bad idea. If you don't pull then everything goes pear shaped as the other end of the long lever tries to pass the serpentine pivot point.

I tried making one and found out that the people who write the books have all assumed the mechanism. I got Martin Pegler at the Royal Armouries to remove the lock plates from a few originals and take pictures of what lay beneath. None of them were anything like I was expecting or how I had been led to believe :shocked2:

 

[john wilson]

Oops, my little quip about reverse engineering got taken literally. Er, sorry about that Robin :redface: However, yet again a stream of very interesting and valuable information is the result. You've got 1st hand knowledge of the inside workings of 17th cent matchlocks ?? :shocked2: So if all else fails and I have to disassemble this pistol of mine you might just be the man to speak to?  Leeds Royal Armouries told me they'd got several examples but I've managed to find just two illustrations online. I was thinking of taking a trip up there (not far) but knowing my luck all the stuff I need to see will be locked in the cellars.

 

[Alden]

When u get there and they ask you if you are an armourer say "no, but I did stay at the Holiday Inn Express across the square." LOL

 

[john wilson]

Does Holiday Inn throw in back stage passes ?? They ought to given how much they charge. :grin:

 

[Alden]

No, they're not "cheap," the rooms aren't large by U.S. standards, and they serve no food (thank God 'cause it'd probably include those horrid Yorkshire puds), however...

...you really can fall outta bed and into the Armouries without even looking the wrong way for traffic!

Oh, and unlike The Fur of the Museum Trade it doesn't even have a nice parking lot and soda machines.

 

[ChrisPer]

Ah, the cast zinc bar-decorator pistol. I have one that my now-gone father gave me, and despite its falling apart I treasure it.

 

[ChrisPer]

Right, um, where were we?

... I got Martin Pegler at the Royal Armouries to remove the lock plates from a few originals and take pictures of what lay beneath. None of them were anything like I was expecting or how I had been led to believe :shocked2:

Squire Robin, have you posted those before? I would greatly love to see them.

 

[john wilson]

Horrid?!!...horrid Yorkshire puddings??.. I'll have you know they're the fuel of Olympic athletes sirrah! Why, the nerve of the man......blasphemy.... :grin:

 

[john wilson]

Yes free to get in and fifteen quid and a fifteen minute walk if you want to use the car. I live about 30+ miles away, I checked recently how long it might take on public transport...four hours ! four hours to travel thirty miles mostly in dirty clapped out diesels (I didn't bother to cost it out) and they say I'm being irresponsibly planet damaging for running a three and a half litre V6 for one eight of the time. :youcrazy: Maybe the Royal Armouries are missing a trick? Tarmac the front,make it a huge car park and put beds in among the exhibits. You can have a fur one Alden if you like, sorted :thumbsup:

 

[john wilson]

Yes, not much point defending that one, don't know how it managed to find its way in amongst the good stuff though, it's even on peashooter. :hmm:

 

[john wilson]

Hi Zonie, found some really informative info and photos etc on another site (Viking sword). I know I can't post photos from there without permission but what are the rules regarding posting links from another forum? Thanks,John.

 

[Zonie]

Rule #26 says: Do not post links to sites that contain Muzzleloading Forums.

As members seemed to forget this rule, Claude, the owner, has the Forums computer set up to block links to other forum sites.

It allows links to many historical sites and to merchant sites so you may try posting your link.

If it works or not will be totally up to the forums computer.

 

[john wilson]

OK can't hurt to give it a try,apologies to anyone if I'm just re-hashing something that's been seen/discussed before but I think it's relevant to the thread and informative. It brings my personal tally of the 'late' matchlock lock to three now,the Swiss musket,the one from the Keith Neale collection, and this one. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7524

 

[Wes/Tex]

Karl, I"m sorry this has taken a while but I've had to do some serious digging through all my files in an attempt to find a Landsknecht armed with a pistol. Sadly, I've come up empty on a picture. The best pictures I've found were of the Battle of Pavia in February 1525 in which harquebusiers played a significant role in the Holy Roman Empire's defeat of the French. All firearms shown are shoulder or cheek fired harquebus type weapons in the hands of the 'Austrian' or 'German' troops. Most cavalry are armed with lances and swords and the majority of the infantry with spears, pikes or bill weapons. Only the German harguebusiers appear to armed with firearms.
Did have some luck with written descriptions though. These dealt with the Holy Roman Empire's provided troops to Henry VIII for his campaign in 1544. Found a lot of extraneous information about infantry and cavalry both and how both of the mercenary groups were armed. The infantry appear to have been armed much like the British of the day, swords, pikes,brown bills, bows, buckler, sallet and two-pronged iron stakes to resist cavalry charges. The cavalry, especially heavy cavalry, hired by Henry were 'German'Reiter(Ritter or 'Swarte Rutters') to the English, were armed with "boresperes and shorthandgonnes", by which it is thought this comment meant boar spears and pistols. What exactly these "shorthandgonnes" may have looked like is speculation at this point. I've found one matchlok pistol, a hand drawn item for the book of military weapons, but is a later style matchlock with the more conventional bar trigger, and not very convincing for the Landkencht era. For reference, "boresperes" are large, thick bladed, short spears descended from early German Jaegers as hand weapons usd to hunt wild boars. Most of the Landknecht infantry and cavalry Henry VIII hired, fought in more conventional English style with English style weaponry. Sorry no picture has come to light, still plodding along. Wes

 

[Wes/Tex]

Karl, I"m sorry this has taken a while but I've had to do some serious digging through all my files in an attempt to find a Landsknecht armed with a pistol. Sadly, I've come up empty on a picture. The best pictures I've found were of the Battle of Pavia in February 1525 in which harquebusiers played a significant role in the Holy Roman Empire's defeat of the French. All firearms shown are shoulder or cheek fired harquebus type weapons in the hands of the 'Austrian' or 'German' troops. Most cavalry are armed with lances and swords and the majority of the infantry with spears, pikes or bill weapons. Only the German harguebusiers appear to armed with firearms.
Did have some luck with written descriptions though. These dealt with the Holy Roman Empire's provided troops to Henry VIII for his campaign in 1544. Found a lot of extraneous information about infantry and cavalry both and how both of the mercenary groups were armed. The infantry appear to have been armed much like the British of the day, swords, pikes,brown bills, bows, buckler, sallet and two-pronged iron stakes to resist cavalry charges. The cavalry, especially heavy cavalry, hired by Henry were 'German'Reiter(Ritter or 'Swarte Rutters') to the English, were armed with "boresperes and shorthandgonnes", by which it is thought this comment meant boar spears and pistols. What exactly these "shorthandgonnes" may have looked like is speculation at this point. I've found one matchlok pistol, a hand drawn item for the book of military weapons, but is a later style matchlock with the more conventional bar trigger, and not very convincing for the Landkencht era. For reference, "boresperes" are large, thick bladed, short spears descended from early German Jaegers as hand weapons usd to hunt wild boars. Most of the Landknecht infantry and cavalry Henry VIII hired, fought in more conventional English style with English style weaponry. Sorry no picture has come to light, still plodding along. Wes

Infantry type with harguebus... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Landsknecht_with_Kriegsmesser_1500's.jpg

 

[Wes/Tex]

Karl, I"m sorry this has taken a while but I've had to do some serious digging through all my files in an attempt to find a Landsknecht armed with a pistol. Sadly, I've come up empty on a picture. The best pictures I've found were of the Battle of Pavia in February 1525 in which harquebusiers played a significant role in the Holy Roman Empire's defeat of the French. All firearms shown are shoulder or cheek fired harquebus type weapons in the hands of the 'Austrian' or 'German' troops. Most cavalry are armed with lances and swords and the majority of the infantry with spears, pikes or bill weapons. Only the German harguebusiers appear to armed with firearms.
Did have some luck with written descriptions though. These dealt with the Holy Roman Empire's provided troops to Henry VIII for his campaign in 1544. Found a lot of extraneous information about infantry and cavalry both and how both of the mercenary groups were armed. The infantry appear to have been armed much like the British of the day, swords, pikes,brown bills, bows, buckler, sallet and two-pronged iron stakes to resist cavalry charges. The cavalry, especially heavy cavalry, hired by Henry were 'German'Reiter(Ritter or 'Swarte Rutters') to the English, were armed with "boresperes and shorthandgonnes", by which it is thought this comment meant boar spears and pistols. What exactly these "shorthandgonnes" may have looked like is speculation at this point. I've found one matchlok pistol, a hand drawn item for the book of military weapons, but is a later style matchlock with the more conventional bar trigger, and not very convincing for the Landkencht era. For reference, "boresperes" are large, thick bladed, short spears descended from early German Jaegers as hand weapons usd to hunt wild boars. Most of the Landknecht infantry and cavalry Henry VIII hired, fought in more conventional English style with English style weaponry. Sorry no picture has come to light, still plodding along. Wes

Infantry type with harguebus... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Landsknecht_with_Kriegsmesser_1500's.jpg[/quote]
Landsknecht with harquebus...http://www.planetdiecast.com/hwdphotos/uploads/950/48/Landsknecht_with_gun.JPG
Two handed for horseback...https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJQWlzKvBmEuWXr3SNBQ6GPYdMNA2AXV0Nef5ggjU2nr7dtegP
pistol of a later era....http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/jetcarwilly/matchlockpistol019_zpsf8850e17.jpg
Landsknecht with harquebus...http://www.uwekistner.de/mediac/400_0/media/07_04_Landsknecht16JH.jpg
possible pistols of that era...http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/62/cc/8a/62cc8a39e51543bd3a90a5ec99735c68.jpg

 

[robinghewitt]

and this one. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7524[/quote]

My goodness what a fantastic lock collection, talk about eye candy.

Do you want a late pattern lock? If you want, I have a set of castings for one that you can have for whatever the going rate is.

 

[john wilson]

Hi Robin, I'm pleased you found 'em interesting, I wasn't sure if you or any of the guys had already seen them,I know Chris had expressed an interest in seeing stuff like this. I found the thread while I was digging around trying to find info on this pistol I've got. It's one hell of a collection this guy has,he's a real academic.I would have liked to speak with him but I think he's in the middle of a falling out with the site moderators so he's probably 'incommunicado' at the moment. There looks to be a musket with the late lock fitted in another PIC, . Looks very 'Brown Bessy' in style but the photo is a bit small,he does say most of the locks are taken from complete guns in his collection. Thanks for the offer of the lock but I'm not planning on building anything,just trying to find out what it is I've got. John :thumbsup:

 

[robinghewitt]

If we are wondering if it is Civil War or Victorian enthusiast, I suggest the screw holding the barrel tang could be a good place to start. On the muskets this turned upside down during the intervening years.

I don't know if pistols went the same way, but here is a picky of a 1640 musket tang bolt for reference.