Dueling: Weapons and history.

[Sharpie44]

I did a video discussing Dueling and the different black powder firearms used. Thought it might interest people here.

In case you were interested in the firearms i used in the video.
1.)French Heavy Dragoon- .54 caliber round ball with tow over & under ball wadding and 30 grains of FFF Goex.

2.) English(Style)target pistol-.32 caliber patched ball and Swiss pistol powder.(I only use Swiss in this gun.)

3.) 1851 colt pedersoli- .36 round ball, felt wad, and 22 grains of FFF Goex powder.

4.) Pennsylvania long rifle- .54 cal patched round ball with 60 grains of FF Goex powder.

I did make a slight mistake in that i used a short start with the rifle and that's not historical. I should have used a wood mallet or just my thumb. The flask is not a historical one but they did have similar ones.


[youtube]ExHSj3_dVPU[/youtube]

 

[dave_person]

Hi Sharpie,
Pretty nice video. Virtually all dedicated English dueling pistols during 1770-1830s had front and rear sights. The rear sight often was a wide "U" for taking quick aim or snap shooting because deliberate aiming was frowned upon by the English. Smooth bored English dueling pistols were very accurate at the prescribed ranges. The owner of one pair I examined could consistently hit the center of a playing card at 20 paces. The balls were a tight fit and wrapped in a greased patch, hence the need for the loading rod and sometimes a mallet was included in the case. English makers sometimes rifled their barrels with barely detectable "scratch rifling" but European makers frequently rifled their dueling pistols. The pistols below are inspired by a pair made by Robert Wogdon in the English Royal collection. Accuracy was a major selling point for a maker and Wogdon was famous for making the best and most accurate pistols during his time. Later, makers such as Manton and Nock made heavier barrels designed to steady the hand and make shooting more accurate. English dueling pistols were relatively unadorned but represented perfection in the art and science of gun making at the time. Perhaps Americans chose inaccuracy in their dueling weapons, but the British and Europeans did not.

dave

 

[satx78247]

Those 2 pistols are simply HANDSOME.

yours, satx

 

[dave_person]

Hi Satx,
They came out well and boy they shoot well. I gave them as a gift to my brother. I lined the case with authentic woolen baize fabric. The company making the fabric is Abimelech Hainsworth in England. They have been in business owned by the same family since 1783. Robert Wogdon may have bought fabric for his cases from that same company. Another fact showing how obsessed dueling pistol makers were with accuracy is that many made ramrods for one of the pair of pistols with a reversible and hollow tip. The tip was unscrewed from the ramrod, turned around, and screwed back on. Seconds poured the powder charge into the tip held vertically. Then the gun barrel was lowered over the tip until the tip reached the breech and the pistol and tip were inverted to pour the powder into the barrel. That way no powder grains got stuck on the barrel walls when loading. The complete charge was poured into the breech. That was done for consistency between pistols and maximum accuracy. Wogdon pistols were reported to be dead on accurate at a range of 12-15 yards, a common dueling distance.

dave

 

[satx78247]

In case anyone is interested, the LAST "official duel" was "fought" in Brunswick County, VA.
(on the premises of what is now Ft Pickett, VA)

It was between two elderly CSA Colonels, who (believe it or not) were angry over a "sleight to a lady's reputation" named Elizabeth Merry Wood.
(Miss Wood had died in 1862, of disease - probably from cholera)

The two OLD/nearly blind men chose SHOTGUNS at 20 paces & at dawn outside of the town limits.

The first exchange of fire MISSED both "duelists".

They then reloaded & took 2 steps forward & fired 2 more times, missing each other again but severely injuring one of the "witnesses".

The seconds, citing the rules of dueling, stopped the duel & demanded that the 2 men shake hands, saying that, "Any shedding of blood washes away any sleight against a person's honor, regardless of how egregious." and "Miss Wood's honor is deemed fully satisfied."

At about 0800 hours everyone except the injured "witness" retired to have breakfast & (according to the local weekly newspaper, THE BLACKSTONE GLEANINGS) the two duelists ate breakfast at the same table, having evidently forgotten their argument.
(In 1984, a group of us were chuckling about this "fiasco", when a local man came over to our table at The City Café & said, "Well it's not a bit funny to me because it was MY grandfather, who got shot & he nearly died.")

yours, satx

 

[Artificer]

Another fact showing how obsessed dueling pistol makers were with accuracy is that many made ramrods for one of the pair of pistols with a reversible and hollow tip. The tip was unscrewed from the ramrod, turned around, and screwed back on. Seconds poured the powder charge into the tip held vertically. Then the gun barrel was lowered over the tip until the tip reached the breech and the pistol and tip were inverted to pour the powder into the barrel. That way no powder grains got stuck on the barrel walls when loading. The complete charge was poured into the breech. That was done for consistency between pistols and maximum accuracy.

dave

Dave,

I found this incredibly interesting, as a modern and similar technique for accuracy is to use a long brass tube that rests on the breech face and with a funnel soldered onto the other end sticking out from the muzzle. The powder charge is poured into the funnel and goes right down to the breech face. This also keeps the powder from sticking to the inside of the barrel and is for more uniformity and accuracy as well.

The Wogdon technique you described does the same thing, only with simpler technology.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

One of the huge reasons dueling began to die out in the late 18th/early 19th century was it became a normal custom for someone to hire someone else to "stand in" for him. These Stand In Alternates were often Professional Duelists, who were extremely good shots and extremely dangerous to duel against. Since one could not hold the Actual Person to account, who had given offense, there was not much point in calling the Offender out.

The one good thing about Dueling was it gave rise to many people practicing a lot with pistols and was the forerunner of modern pistol shooting competition.

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus!
You are absolutely right. I think if you follow the design changes in English and European dueling pistols from the 18th into the 19th centuries you get a sense of how they were transitioning from dueling weapons to target guns. Rifling became more common, the barrels were heavier, and the sights more fine and on some, adjustable. Pistol shooting galleries were very popular in London during the first half of the 19th century. I've had the privilege of handling a half dozen British dueling pistols, most from the 19th century, and most with the heavy straighter barrels popular during that time. They would make good target pistols. One thing for certain, is that British and European dueling pistol makers paid a lot of attention to accuracy, efficiency, and reliability. Any notion that dueling pistols were inaccurate by design and custom is simply wrong.

dave

 

[wulf]

You sure have my respect sir.....
Wulf

 

[dave_person]

Hi Wulf,
Thank you for that. I hope you understand that the feeling is mutual.

dave

 

[Artificer]

There is also something to be said about differentiating between civilian duels and military duels.

It was not only "common," but almost expected that when two Officers got into a duel, they would use either the sword or pistol they carried on duty. So large, smooth bored pistols would have been more common for them for much of the flintlock era, because that was what they were armed with. That is not to say some carried a set of regular or "civilian" style dueling pistols or would sometimes make use of them, if available.

There also seems to have been more duels by what branch of service the Officers came from. Cavalry Officers seemed to have gotten into the most and followed by the Infantry. Ships Officers were rarely "allowed" to duel while serving aboard a ship. Oh, never heard of two Artillery Officers each using one of their cannon for a duel. :haha:

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I have looked at a lot of original cased sets of dueling pistols over the years at the annual Baltimore Antique Gun Show, but I've only had the opportunity to handle about three British Flintlock Dueling Pistols and worked on one of them and one original Niolaus Boutet Dueling/Target Pistol, circa 1810. That last pistol was a saw handled flintlock of exceptional quality and was rifled with front and rear sights. It came up and pointed so naturally, it was amazing.

Gus

 

[LRB]

In case anyone is interested, the LAST "official duel" was "fought" in Brunswick County, VA.
(on the premises of what is now Ft Pickett, VA)

It was between two elderly CSA Colonels, who (believe it or not) were angry over a "sleight to a lady's reputation" named Elizabeth Merry Wood.
(Miss Wood had died in 1862, of disease - probably from cholera)

The two OLD/nearly blind men chose SHOTGUNS at 20 paces & at dawn outside of the town limits.

The first exchange of fire MISSED both "duelists".

They then reloaded & took 2 steps forward & fired 2 more times, missing each other again but severely injuring one of the "witnesses".

The seconds, citing the rules of dueling, stopped the duel & demanded that the 2 men shake hands, saying that, "Any shedding of blood washes away any sleight against a person's honor, regardless of how egregious." and "Miss Wood's honor is deemed fully satisfied."

At about 0800 hours everyone except the injured "witness" retired to have breakfast & (according to the local weekly newspaper, THE BLACKSTONE GLEANINGS) the two duelists ate breakfast at the same table, having evidently forgotten their argument.
(In 1984, a group of us were chuckling about this "fiasco", when a local man came over to our table at The City Café & said, "Well it's not a bit funny to me because it was MY grandfather, who got shot & he nearly died.")

yours, satx

Not sure what you mean by "official duel". The last legal duel fought in the United States was the Cash/Shannon duel in 1880, near Camden S.C. Ellerbe Boggan Crawford Cash killed Wm. M. Shannon in a pistol duel. Another relative, Capt. Robert G. Ellerbe, served as a second for Col. Cash. This duel spawned a backlash against dueling all through the country, and later forced anyone aspiring to be a member of government to sign an oath that they had never fought in a duel. In effect until 1954.

 

[satx78247]

According to the VA Historical Society, what I posted is 100% correct.

yours, satx

 

[LRB]

According to most, if not all, other available history sources, what I posted is 100% correct.

 

[MSW]

not sure if it's still in force, or simply part of the traditions, but my supervising attorney in Louisville KY had to swear that he had never participated in or been any part of a duel before he was admitted to the bar.

we all thought that this was a pretty curious thing.

 

[satx78247]

Fwiw, WI recently "updated" it's criminal laws & among other things that was removed was the prohibition against dueling, according to PBS-TV.

I guess that if you are interested in being IN a duel, that WI is your place. = CHUCKLE.

Fwiw, there are some VERY peculiar "old laws" still on the books in a LOT of places.
(For example in Washington, DC, it's unlawful to "- - - - kiss one's wife on Sunday in a public place & in a lascivious manner".)

yours, satx