Dutch rifles?

[George]

What would rifles offered for sale in Charles Town, SC, in 1764 as "BEST Dutch rifles , with moulds and wipes" look like?

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[Stumpkiller]

It would be a Jäger (there was no "Germany" in 1750). "Dutch" covered a lot of territory.

 

[George]

Wouldn't have thought of a jaeger, I had in mind something more like the Dutch fowlers of New England area. I don't believe I've ever seen an association of the Dutch with jaegers.

There was not a single unified German nation such as exits in our time, but the people of the 18th century thought of it as one. There are hundreds of uses of the terms German and Germany, and the way they are used is no different than what we would do today. The same is true of the terms Dutch and Holland. They made a clear distinction between the two countries Germany and Holland. There's a good chance that when they said Dutch rifles they meant rifles from Holland.

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[Robby]

I agree with Stumpkiller. Dutch is, generally, an anglicization of Deutsche, which includes any of the many germanic language groups.
Robby

 

[George]

So, you guys are saying that when I read about the Dutch East India company it's really the Deutch East india Company, and that when I read that a Dutch ship is sailing for Holland it really means a German ship is sailing for.... ?

Sorry, can't agree with that idea. The Dutch played a long, significant and real part in the history of this country in the early years, and commerce was at the heart of much of it.

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[Stophel]

I never understood why Hollanders ever came to be called "Dutch"....

Very often, the word "Dutch" was English for "Deutsch"...hence the reason that the PA Germans are still called the "Pennsylvania Dutch"...and they're not from Holland at all.

The Dutch apparently don't call themselves "Dutch" :wink:

The "Dutch" East India Company is the "Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie" (United East Indian Company) "V O C". It's only called the "Dutch East India Company" to differentiate it from the English East India Company.


It can be pretty confusing.

And yes, I have no doubt that the imported "Dutch rifles" were German (though rifles were certainly made in Holland as well).

 

[colmoultrie]

Rich Pierce posted a beautiful Dutch (whether German or Netherlands, I don't know for sure) Rifle in the French & Indian War rifle thread (Topic#250029). It looks "Niederlaendisch" to me, as it is reminiscent of a Hudson Valley Fowler in some respects, but I'm not sure.

"Dutch" muskets are usually Germanic, but sometimes also include products of the Netherlands and Belgium too, just to throw another element into the mixture. :idunno:

 

[tg]

I suspect they were Germanic but there was also French influence in that area according to Lenk, I think it might be best not to be so set on thinking "Jaegaer" when invisioning these guns and some were sent over with 3 1/2' barrels at times and in "lots" or "parcels" which brings to question how closely this industry mirrored the trade gun industry, many times as mentioned there are qualifiers such as "best" much like the French hunting guns of the early 18th century which may have been offered in five or six "grades" or more such as "highly polished" or "furnished in brass" ,we just need to be carefull about speculation here I think, it would be nice to see a large assortment of various German rifles of the time, generaly the term "German rifle" automaticaly brings visions of the short barreled heavy stocked "Jaeger" that has come to represent "the" rifle from Germany, I will leave it to Stophel and others more astute about this topic than I to add any docums and bonafide information, some of the imports to the colonies may have been made to some colonial "specs" as other guns of the time were, just things to think about.Whiskers books mention several references of imported rifles in the 1750's but there are no surviving examples we know of, possibly any existing guns in Europe of that period might lend a clue, but some changes may have been made for the export market.Somethimg like the Shrite gun in its original form may have been somewhat close during this time, there is just so little to go by and I cannot blindly toss the jaegaers as they are commonly shoen and known into the mix on this one, I may be wrong I know I was once before, I think it was in 1969, I may be due again :idunno:

 

[rich pierce]

When it comes to the imported early rifles used here in the colonies, it's all speculation backed by knowledge of what was commonly made in Europe for European customers. This is entirely different from the trade smoothbore picture, where we have lots of examples of "types" to go on that match period descriptions from orders. What many of us want to know, is what did those early imported rifles with 4' long barrels look like?

There is a documented short barreled "jaeger" rifle belonging to a Revolutionary War soldier in the Mohawk Valley of NY state. It is not known whether the owner (Col. Vrooman IIRC) owned it before the War or picked it up at Saratoga.

Kinda makes you want one just like it, doesn't it?

 

[Robby]

Yes!
Robby

 

[George]

What about Dutch fowlers? Are they German, too? And Dutch gun flints? And this lost fowling piece, described as "Fowling Piece, mounted with Brass, Dutch Make, a black Barrel, with a pretty wide Bore. "?

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[George]

And yes, I have no doubt that the imported "Dutch rifles" were German (though rifles were certainly made in Holland as well).

You are right, it is very confusing. How did you decide they were German rifles? If they were German, why didn't they call them that? Why couldn't they have been some of those rifles you say were made in Holland? They certainly knew of German rifles: "WAS LOST, on the 8th or 9th of May last, on the great Road betwixt Harris’ Ferry and Shippensburgh, a German rifle Gun, about two Feet in the Barrel, large Bore, carved Stock, a white Metal Lion upon the Barrel, near the Lock, with a Scepter in his Paw, double Tricker, double Sight, the under Brass or Copper, and the upper Iron."

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[tg]

My only pointwas to not automatically assume that ythese imports were all clones of the short barreled German guns we have come to know and at times are told evolved into the American longrifle,what IF ANYTHING different would likley/plausibley be done in the way of changes to take the style of the 24" rifle and produce a 42' rifle? Would differences in usage and conditions in the colonies cause any style/design changes? just fishin' for thoughts, I do not have any clues about any possible changes or the need for any, it just seems that the large bulky buttstock commonly shown on the short guns of the time might not serve as well in a 3 1/2' to 4' gun?

 

[hoochiepapa]

Didn't the barrels lengthen and bores get smaller to facilitate better burning of the powder? Lead and powder were expensive.

 

[rich pierce]

Didn't the barrels lengthen and bores get smaller to facilitate better burning of the powder? Lead and powder were expensive.

That is what we've been told by dozens of writers repeating what other writers wrote before them. I am unaware of any period document stating that the colonists prefer smaller bored rifles with longer barrels to conserve powder and lead, or to efficiently use poorer quality powder, etc. These are assumptions and may well be true, but they are based on modern day reasoning, not data. Similar reasoning also occurs when folks state that the longrifle is a product of the marriage between an English fowler or trade gun and a Germanic rifle- as if there were no long barreled Germanic fowlers, etc. Could be, but not an iota of documentation.

 

[Stophel]

And yes, I have no doubt that the imported "Dutch rifles" were German (though rifles were certainly made in Holland as well).

You are right, it is very confusing. How did you decide they were German rifles? If they were German, why didn't they call them that? Why couldn't they have been some of those rifles you say were made in Holland? They certainly knew of German rifles: "WAS LOST, on the 8th or 9th of May last, on the great Road betwixt Harris’ Ferry and Shippensburgh, a German rifle Gun, about two Feet in the Barrel, large Bore, carved Stock, a white Metal Lion upon the Barrel, near the Lock, with a Scepter in his Paw, double Tricker, double Sight, the under Brass or Copper, and the upper Iron."

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I "decided" that they were German rifles, given the typical loose use of the word "Dutch" in the 18th century, and that Holland, though a gunmaking center to be sure, was never known for rifle making, though they did make a smattering of them here and there. Ok, the advertisement COULD be for rifles made in the Netherlands, I'll assent to the possibility...but I doubt it.

Why, indeed, didn't they call them "German"? Why didn't they call them Hessian or Thuringian or Hannoverian instead??? As a general rule, the English were indifferent towards Germans, at best, and actually very often the English reviled them. They cared not from what part of the continent anyone or anything Germanic came so their terminology tended to not be terribly precise.

 

[Stophel]

Consider also that "Dutch" is basically a dialect of German (though a bit more "removed" from other German dialects), so in the indifferent Englishman's mind German, Dutch, what's the difference?

I can speak a LITTLE High German (and I'm VERY out of practice) and I can read Dutch not too bad, considering. I do not know how to properly pronounce it, and I can imagine I would be utterly lost trying to listen to it. :wink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German

 

[Mike Brooks]

What about Dutch fowlers? Are they German, too? And Dutch gun flints? And this lost fowling piece, described as "Fowling Piece, mounted with Brass, Dutch Make, a black Barrel, with a pretty wide Bore. "?

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I have a Dutch hunting gun and am aware of at least 1/2dozen others. They were commonly traded along the north eastern sea ports. THey were mad in the big gun building centers of Maastict and Uetrcht..(sp?)
There are a couple pictured in Grinslades fowler book.

 

[Stophel]

There is a documented short barreled "jaeger" rifle belonging to a Revolutionary War soldier in the Mohawk Valley of NY state. It is not known whether the owner (Col. Vrooman IIRC) owned it before the War or picked it up at Saratoga.

Kinda makes you want one just like it, doesn't it?

LOVE this little rifle! I'll go out on a limb and hazard a guess that it is from somewhere in the Main River area, and probably on the South side of that river.

 

[George]

I have a Dutch hunting gun and am aware of at least 1/2dozen others.

Do you mean that these are rifles?

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