Earliest elongated bullets?

[kropek]

Hi All,
Were elongated bullets used or experimented with before the 1830s? Does anybody here know of any source of information concerning any existing evidence of them?

Cheers
Andrzej "kropek"

 

[Richard Brinkman]

The earliest that I have read about is in "THE MUZZLE-LOADING CAP LOCK RIFLE" by Ned Roberts on page 147 and 148 he writes about a "picket" and "sugar-loaf" bullet that was in use about 1835 in the US. It would be interesting to know when something similar was developed over on your side of the pond.

Richard

 

[kropek]

That is the same source I drew my knowledge, too.

Somebody has mentioned to me that he knew of some non-spherical (elongated) bullets used in XVIII century firearms, he couldn't state any details, mantioned some strange "composite bullet" moulds (?).

Roberts' classic book is dated, perhaps there has been some new facts discovered since its publication...

 

[J.D.]

I have seen photos of European rifles with square and heart shaped bores, among others, so there must have been some sort of elongated bullet to fit those bores. However, I suspect that an especially designed starter was needed to load those rifles.

That was the problem with picket and sugar-loaf bullets. They required false muzzles and specially made starters to insure the bullets were properly aligned with the bore.

To my knowledge, there were NO elongated bullets like the REAL bullet or any of the modern designs.

While elongated bullets were probably known and used, to some small extent, those bullets would probably have had the same problems in loading and shooting as those used in the New World.

God bless

 

[Dphar]

I have seen photos of European rifles with square and heart shaped bores, among others, so there must have been some sort of elongated bullet to fit those bores. However, I suspect that an especially designed starter was needed to load those rifles.

That was the problem with picket and sugar-loaf bullets. They required false muzzles and specially made starters to insure the bullets were properly aligned with the bore.

To my knowledge, there were NO elongated bullets like the REAL bullet or any of the modern designs.

While elongated bullets were probably known and used, to some small extent, those bullets would probably have had the same problems in loading and shooting as those used in the New World.

God bless

Some of these with the decorative shapes to the bores may have never been intended to be fired. They certainly are not practical.
But as a "lookie what I did" items at the guild hall they are very impressive.

The elongated bullet in MLs had 2 primary uses. They were used for a very short time by the worlds militaries, 20 years or less and by civilians mostly on the target ranges.
Ned Roberts' to the contrary not withstanding the picket bullet is a royal PITA to use compared to the RB but was widely used in "long range rifles
in the 1830s-40s and Schuetzen rifles till the ML fell from use for this. The serious long range rifles for the most part switched to long PP bullets by the 1850s . Far more accurate and this allowed bullets over 3 calibers in length. The picket, with its cloth patch, was limited to about 2 calibers in length and a very short bearing surface.
In hunting arms the elongated bullet just was not all that practical. They were used as Roberts indicates but I can't see how they loaded a cloth patched picket in a double rifle and got any significant accuracy without a guide starter. But Roberts glosses over the details of how these rifles were loaded with the bullets they reportedly used. In my somewhat limited experience and that of others, without a precision guide starter or a false muzzle and guide starter the picket is hopelessly inaccurate.
"Naked" bullets in MLs need no starter to give decent accuracy but tend to slide off the powder so they have "issues" if carried all day and especially if carried horse back.
The PP bullets need at least as much equipment as a picket and false muzzles are precision instruments that will not likely survive field use.
So in the end we are back to the PRB as the most practical bullet for MLs for general use.
These reasons are presumably why the elongated bullet was apparently not used before the 1820s-30s and was limited in civilian use at any time.

Dan

 

[tg]

One person provided info about conical bullets (solid lead) being used in the Rev War period it may have been the lozenge ball (oblong shape, rounded on the ends) I do not recall the details this has been several years ago.

 

[Dphar]

One person provided info about conical bullets (solid lead) being used in the Rev War period it may have been the lozenge ball (oblong shape, rounded on the ends) I do not recall the details this has been several years ago.

There is a photo of an assumed 19th century bullet mould by one of the Gumphs that has a round ball, pointed picket and a bullet that is about picket length with radius (ball) end on each end.
Its in Whisker's "Gunsmiths of Lancaster County" IIRC
Dan

 

[nkbj]

And then there's that other use for paper patched; fun.
This is a homemade concoction of lead, paper and beeswax that I use in a 22" .50 caliber carbine barrel on a TC Renegade stock. Being simmered in beeswax it is tough and not easy to tear up. And, like waxing a surf board it doesn't slip in the barrel. The mold diameter allows a double wrap of paper to fit the bullet to the barrel. There is a small hollow base that is designed to work with heavy charges.

 

[zrifleman]

Dan---Do you have any experience with English ML target rifles like the Rigby or Gibbs? They are loaded with bore diameter bullets with no special equipment to start the bullet. Are you familiar with the groups/accuracy that are possible at 200 yds to 1000 yds. I owned and shot a 35 lb, 45 cal slug gun for several years. My Pedersoli Gibbs will out shoot it every time. Last week I shot a 1.602" 5 shot group @ 200 yds---all in the X ring with a bore dia PP bullet, started with my fingers.

 

[Jason Lewis]

Dan---Do you have any experience with English ML target rifles like the Rigby or Gibbs? They are loaded with bore diameter bullets with no special equipment to start the bullet. Are you familiar with the groups/accuracy that are possible at 200 yds to 1000 yds. I owned and shot a 35 lb, 45 cal slug gun for several years. My Pedersoli Gibbs will out shoot it every time. Last week I shot a 1.602" 5 shot group @ 200 yds---all in the X ring with a bore dia PP bullet, started with my fingers.

i concur, no special equipment needed.

 

[curator]

Dan Phariss is right on about the Picket bullet. It needed a false muzzle and careful loading technique to yield any advantage on the round ball. Also, Ballisticians where unaware of the advantage of elongated bullets before the general availability of a means to measure bullet velocity. It was widely believed that the round ball was the most efficient of all projectiles in terms of air resistance until the invention of the ballistic pendulum (about 1790). US military armories began to test various bullet designs with the pendulum in the early 1830s. Scientific evidence gathered in these and other tests drove the search for an easily loaded, accurate elongated bullet. The Minie' was the most practical of the designs. The rest is history!

 

[ResearchPress]

The ballistic pedulum was invented in 1742 by the English mathematician Benjamin Robins.

He experimented with with rifle barrels, the results of which were published in the paper read before The Royal Society on 2nd July 1747. In this paper he discusses the use of a bullet of egg-like form and considers its possible advantages over the spherical ball. This appears to be theoretical rather than experimental.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

Captain Norton produced an elongated bullet in Great Britain, the bullet's length being about one and three quarter times its diameter and the hollow base of which contained the powder charge. In 1824 he submitted it to the Select Committee on Firearms who appear to have been most conservative in their views, rejecting it on the grounds that "a spherical ball was the only shape of projectile adapted for military purposes."

Lieutenant-Colonel Davidson, working in India in 1832 produced a number of expanding bullets. Apparently the bullet was nearly all point and having little bearing surface.

Greener in the UK also worked with elongated bullets. His bullet was oblong in form and used an iron plug which was driven home when the charges was ignited and expanded the bullet into rifling. This was tried and rejected by the British Ordnance authorities in 1835.

All these appear to have been experimental designs that received no wide spread adoption.

David

 

[Richard Brinkman]

All very interesting, knowing how slow the military is to accept new ideas especially in the far distance past. I'm just guessing but think that there was no need for a long heavy bullet until hunters encountered big, hard to kill animals on a regular bases as in Africa, India, and the American West.

 

[gearheart]

IIRC the minie ball was used by the French in the Crimean War. When you consider the time it takes to test and prove a theory, convince the military establishment of its worth and get production going to an adequate volume that it is issued to the troops, it is not unreasonable that Mssr. Minie was working on this in the time frame you mention.

 

[ResearchPress]

The cylindro-conoidal bullet had been patented by Delvigne in 1841. It was not until about 1844 that Captain Minie came onto the scene and taking Delvigne's idea modified the form of the bullet to be expanded by the charge acting upon an iron cup placed in the base of the bullet.

Much work went on in the design of expanding projectiles in France from the mid-1820s.

David

 

[dyemaker]

Very interesting stuff :thumbsup: Thanks for the input.

 

[tg]

I am going to see if I can find the guy who was deep into early bullets several years back on another forum, he has examples of non round ball projectiles at the time of the revolutuion they were not in use much and probably for a good reason but they were around quite early. I am almost certain the Lozenge ball was one and I think there was at least one or two others mentioned fro te 1775=1800 era, if I find him I will start another thread if this one has petered out.