Earliest English Sporting Rifles?

[Tacksman45]

I was wondering if anyone has any insight into when the first rifles which we would call English Sporting Rifles were first made, and what they might have looked like? I have found a few books which might be informative including Neal and Back's "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790" and I read that "Engraving Historic Firearms" by John Schippers has some pictures of English rifles. I have looked at pictures of reproductions that people have uploaded to the web, and some originals in museums including a very nice example in the Royal Collection Trust in the U.K. which was built by Dutch gunmaker Andrew Dolep, and was "remounted" (which I assume means restocked) by English gunsmith William Turvey in the early 1730's (who seems to be the main gunsmith associate with English sporting rifles) However the article does not state whether it is a rifle or not.

https://www.rct.uk/collection/61114/flintlock-gun

I have also looked at the picture for the English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle kit on Jim Chambers' website, which like the piece in the RCT appears to have silver (or German silver) furniture, which looks very similar to the furniture on French "type C" trade guns, which is interesting. If anyone has any information on this subject, or knows any sources for reading I would really appreciate it!

Thanks!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I had one that dated about 1680. It was a breech loader and was about a 12 gauge.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Dave Person has a lot of that research. You might try PM'ing him directly

 

[Tacksman45]

I had one that dated about 1680. It was a breech loader and was about a 12 gauge.

Do you still have any pictures of it?

 

[Artificer]

This is the earliest reference I have so far found to English Sporting Rifles being used here in the Colonies. Sorry, no pictures.

“Col. Phil [Phillip Ludwell Lee of Strafford] also enjoyed hunting. The inventory of his possessions included “1 Rifle new made by Turvey” and “1 new Turvey,” as well as a fowling piece and a gun.57 The rifle and unspecified firearm were probably made by gunsmith William Turvey (II) of London. Most Virginia planters purchased locally-made rifles, but Col. Phil had sent to London to acquire one of the best rifles available at the time. Much more accurate than those made in the colonies, this rifle was used for recreational game hunting and target matches. Turvey rifles were elegant, artistic pieces, and an obvious status symbol in the colonies. 58”
https://www.stratfordhall.org/coll...e-revolution-philip-ludwell-lee-of-stratford/

Gus

 

[tenngun]

Rifles in wheelocks show up in England in early seventeenth century. Many of the rifeled barrels that went on to American rifles in colonial times seem to have been made in England. Yet from the time of the revolution we have letters where rifles are being explained to the folks back home. That makes me think they were few and far between until late eighteenth early nineteenth.
Although deer and in Scotland red deer(elk) are to be seen, most of England hunting information and instruction manuals concentrate on small game and fowling guns. I would hazzard that the Great age of English sporting rifles is the nineteenth century

 

[cositrike]

Rifles in wheelocks show up in England in early seventeenth century. Many of the rifeled barrels that went on to American rifles in colonial times seem to have been made in England. Yet from the time of the revolution we have letters where rifles are being explained to the folks back home. That makes me think they were few and far between until late eighteenth early nineteenth.
Although deer and in Scotland red deer(elk) are to be seen, most of England hunting information and instruction manuals concentrate on small game and fowling guns. I would hazzard that the Great age of English sporting rifles is the nineteenth century

IMO English sporting rifles were fairly rare, as only the rich were able to hunt legally (as apposed to poaching). Also ‘big game’ in England even back in the 17th-19th century, were deer. Most everything else could be taken with a smooth bore gun. England is a very small place when compared to the US. no week long hunts hunts into the wilderness. No bears, or wolves. No elk, so average joe didn’t need a rifle.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,

English-made sporting rifles go back at least to the time of the English Civil War (1642-1651). There are records of their use as sniper weapons from fortified manors and forts that were under siege. These rifles were made for hunting deer on large estates and most were breech loading. They had a screw plug on the top or bottom of the barrel that was removed, then powder poured in and the ball on top, and the plug returned (this was not a Ferguson breech). The chamber had a shoulder upon which the ball seated much a modern rifle and when fired the larger ball filled the grooves making a perfect gas seal. They were quite accurate and powerful. Many, if not most, "screw barrel" or "turn off" pistols made during that time were also rifled and very powerful. Neal and Back's book "Great British Gunmakers 1540-1740)" shows some examples but not full length. Any wheellock rifles in England likely were not made there.


The Dolep fowler you show is not rifled but is certainly a nice example of Dolep's work despite being restocked by Turvey. There were quite a few British makers other than Turvey who made rifles early to mid- 18th century but rifles were never numerous because the demand was low. That market increased a bit as British soldiers began serving long periods in North America and India, where officers had the opportunity to hunt large game. There is a nice sporting rifle by Benjamin Griffin shown in Baily's "British Military Flintlock Rifles" used by one of those soldiers.


Unfortunately, there are not many detailed photos available of early British-made rifles because so few were made. The photos of Turvey's rifle in Shumway's "Rifles in Colonial America Vol 1" are about the best available and his work was typical of the second quarter of the 18th century. William Turvey died in 1745 and his business was carried on by Jonathan Stanton, who also made some rifles. Breech loading rifles of the old principle and newer designs, like those of La Chaumette, Cookson, and Ferguson were made throughout the 18th century. Usually rifle stock designs did not differ greatly from those of concurrent fowlers. They usually did not have cheek pieces unless made in the "German" fashion (i.e, jaeger) until late century and into the 1800s. Neal and Back's books are some of your best sources. Bailey's also offers some photos and a lot of historical insight. John George's "English Guns and Rifles" has chapters about English rifles and some full length photos but they are small format and hard to use for the details. You want to be wary of many modern made versions because many of them do not capture British styling very well. After I finish up a late flint English rifle, my next British rifle will be a rifled officer's fusil similar to the Twigg rifle shown in Bailey's book. It will be complete with a short bayonet.


dave

 

[dave_person]

I had one that dated about 1680. It was a breech loader and was about a 12 gauge.

Hi,
I know a fine gun maker who used to own a 17th century English breech loading rifle. He posted photos of it on another forum some years ago. It was a nice and very interesting gun with a screw plug on the bottom, doglock, and a peep sight if I remember correctly.

dave

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Hi,
I know a fine gun maker who used to own a 17th century English breech loading rifle. He posted photos of it on another forum some years ago. It was a nice and very interesting gun with a screw plug on the bottom, doglock, and a peep sight if I remember correctly.

dave

Ding ding ding ding. You get a medal for having a superior memory! That gun was pictured in at least 3 books as well. It came out of either Neal's or Back's personal collection, I think it was Neal. Last I heard it now resides back in jolly old England where it belongs.

 

[Tacksman45]

Hi,

English-made sporting rifles go back at least to the time of the English Civil War (1642-1651). There are records of their use as sniper weapons from fortified manors and forts that were under siege. These rifles were made for hunting deer on large estates and most were breech loading. They had a screw plug on the top or bottom of the barrel that was removed, then powder poured in and the ball on top, and the plug returned (this was not a Ferguson breech). The chamber had a shoulder upon which the ball seated much a modern rifle and when fired the larger ball filled the grooves making a perfect gas seal. They were quite accurate and powerful. Many, if not most, "screw barrel" or "turn off" pistols made during that time were also rifled and very powerful. Neal and Back's book "Great British Gunmakers 1540-1740)" shows some examples but not full length. Any wheellock rifles in England likely were not made there.


The Dolep fowler you show is not rifled but is certainly a nice example of Dolep's work despite being restocked by Turvey. There were quite a few British makers other than Turvey who made rifles early to mid- 18th century but rifles were never numerous because the demand was low. That market increased a bit as British soldiers began serving long periods in North America and India, where officers had the opportunity to hunt large game. There is a nice sporting rifle by Benjamin Griffin shown in Baily's "British Military Flintlock Rifles" used by one of those soldiers.


Unfortunately, there are not many detailed photos available of early British-made rifles because so few were made. The photos of Turvey's rifle in Shumway's "Rifles in Colonial America Vol 1" are about the best available and his work was typical of the second quarter of the 18th century. William Turvey died in 1745 and his business was carried on by Jonathan Stanton, who also made some rifles. Breech loading rifles of the old principle and newer designs, like those of La Chaumette, Cookson, and Ferguson were made throughout the 18th century. Usually rifle stock designs did not differ greatly from those of concurrent fowlers. They usually did not have cheek pieces unless made in the "German" fashion (i.e, jaeger) until late century and into the 1800s. Neal and Back's books are some of your best sources. Bailey's also offers some photos and a lot of historical insight. John George's "English Guns and Rifles" has chapters about English rifles and some full length photos but they are small format and hard to use for the details. You want to be wary of many modern made versions because many of them do not capture British styling very well. After I finish up a late flint English rifle, my next British rifle will be a rifled officer's fusil similar to the Twigg rifle shown in Bailey's book. It will be complete with a short bayonet.


dave

Hi Dave!

Thanks very much for your reply! I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my inquiry. I have a few things I am wondering about which I would like your input on.

How common were the breech loading English rifles compared to conventional muzzleloading English rifles?

Were polished iron, blued iron, brass, or silver/German silver more or less common for the furniture on these guns?

Were the barrels more commonly fully swamped octagonal, or swamped octagonal to round?

How common were patchboxes?

When you say to be wary of many modern made versions can tell me specifically if there is one you are talking about? (PM me)

Finally do you think that a set of French type "C" trade gun furniture would work for one of the rifles, or is it to different from the English furniture?

Thanks a lot!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Hi Dave!

Thanks very much for your reply! I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my inquiry. I have a few things I am wondering about which I would like your input on.

How common were the breech loading English rifles compared to conventional muzzleloading English rifles?

Were polished iron, blued iron, brass, or silver/German silver more or less common for the furniture on these guns?

Were the barrels more commonly fully swamped octagonal, or swamped octagonal to round?

How common were patchboxes?

When you say to be wary of many modern made versions can tell me specifically if there is one you are talking about? (PM me)

Finally do you think that a set of French type "C" trade gun furniture would work for one of the rifles, or is it to different from the English furniture?

Thanks a lot!

I'm not Dave, but I can help you out and Dave can probably take you even deeper into the minutia of British sporting rifles.
I have been told that breech loading rifles were actually more common than muzzleloading. I was surprised by this as I've seen far more muzzleloading guns, but A guy can't see them all I guess. Keep in mind, ALL British rifles are/were rare when compared to British fowling guns. British rifles were mainly "Park guns" , used on estates to shoot deer by the nobility.
Mounts: You'll see all kinds of material. Sterling/Fine silver was found on the high end guns followed by iron, a material called "paktung" followed by brass. "Paktung" looks a lot like silver but the color is a bit off. German silver was too late for these guns. I have also seen wood trigger guards in the "German fashion". I used to own a fowling gun by Durrs Egg that had a wood trigger guard, pretty weird.
Barrels: commonly swamped octagon, 26" to 34" long, more or less. The guns I have taken apart show traces of fire blue under the wood. I'm going to guess barrels were also browned to bring out any Damascus figure, generally a very broad pattern, not like the later patterns you see on SXS shotguns. My old ca. 1680 gun was Oct/rnd with a cannon ring at the muzzle, this was pretty early and weird and really doesn't compare at all with guns made 50 to 100 years later.
Patchboxes: Yes and no. If they were built in the "German fashion" they may or may not have had a sliding wood box. If built in the "English fashion" they probably would not have had a box or cheek piece. And let me say right here , there were always exceptions. Guns built in then "german fashion often had a square toe and the "English fashion" "Generaly" had a round toe pretty much looking like an English fowling piece except for the short barrel.
Mounts: Depends on the period somewhat. In the 1750-85 period the buttplate would look like a British fowling gun having either a square or round toe. the trigger guard could be just like a british fowling gun, with a husk finial or a acorn finial depending on the period.
As far as who's making correctly styled British rifles I don't have a clue.
Here's one built in the "English fashion:
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/323 english park rifle?sort=3&page=1
Here's one in the "German fashion":
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/351 English Park Rifle?sort=3&page=1
Here's my old ca. 1680-ish English rifle, you'll notice it's quite unusual, but typical for the time.
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/english doglock breechloader?sort=3&page=1

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Let me add, the English "Park" styled rifle would have been quite rare in Colonial America. They are documented but quite rare. The English did make a rifle to look like a Kentucky rifle to be issued to British partisans. These were made for the Rev War period and I don't recall exactly but I don't think more than a couple thousand were made, probably far less. I have handled 3 or 4 of these antique "English Kentucky's" and they are a little bit on the clunky side when you have them in hand. I have always wanted to build one, maybe some day yet.
They also made the 1776 model which was a muzzleloader and of course the famous Ferguson rifle which was a breech loader. The 1776 and the Fergie were both strictly military guns.
Here's a 1776.
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/1776 rifle?sort=3&page=1

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Here's another 1776, at least I think it's a different one .
http://www.fowlingguns.com/militarygun1.html

 

[dave_person]

Hi Buckskinner35,
CN covered most of the details very well. It is very hard to piece together the history of early British rifles because until the 19th century, rifles were not a significant portion of their production. However, styles changed over time and it pays to understand those changes, which mirrored styles used for fowling guns. The exception are those rifles built in the German style, which often look like slightly Anglicized jaeger rifles. I sent you a PM with a link to information that should help. French trade gun hardware would not be appropriate for any British rifle.

dave

 

[Flintfan69]

As far as who's making correctly styled British rifles I don't have a clue.

All of the rifles pictured were made by Mike Brooks.

 

[dave_person]

All of the rifles pictured were made by Mike Brooks.

Hi,
Yes, and Mike is one of the few contemporary makers who knows how to make an 18th century British sporting gun.

dave

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Hi,
Yes, and Mike is one of the few contemporary makers who knows how to make an 18th century British sporting gun.

dave

I'd add Dave Person to the list. He knows much more than that Brooks fellow.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

All of the rifles pictured were made by Mike Brooks.

Is that a good thing or bad?

 

[Flintfan69]

Is that a good thing or bad?

It's nothing more than a fact.