Early Lancaster 1770 Patchbox pattern

[rootnuke]

I positioned by patchbox and performed some minor inleting for the hinge..but then I got to thinking..
What pattern would I grave in the patchbox?
Would there be any open areas where the wood showed through to compliment the pattern design?
Well I have been looking and looking and I have not found a pattern to match this particular patchbox I received with the kit.
Here is the patchbox I have.

Does anyone have or know where I can find an authentic engraving pattern to match this patchbox?

My kit is the Early Lancaster (John Bivins) 1770 after the style of Isaac Haines.

The kit is at TOW here 1770 Lancaster

I have the book, Rifle Furniture Patterns & Engraving 2nd Edition. There are some that are in many ways close to my patchbox but also in many way different.

The one I have is PB-KIT-14-B

 

[rootnuke]

If the answer is ... Just apply a Rococo pattern the best you can., then I can do that. But I would like to create a pattern/design which was correct for the period on the ML.

 

[Zonie]

I don't see much in Chandler & Whisker's PATCHBOXES Vol 2 that looks quite like it.

The 4 leaved "flower" is on several of the pictures and of course the screw is in the center of the pattern.

The rather bulb like shape is what's confusing to me. It doesn't seem to flow into the sideplates like most of the patchboxes I've seen pictures of.
To me, this area looks more like it wasn't made for sideplate style boxes.
Maybe someone else will give you a better answer.

::

 

[rootnuke]

Zonie,
Thats the same thing I get out of this, there is something not right. I have several plate's of brass in various thickness that I can fashion a unique design that is era correct. Maybe replace the main side piece's. But, I may seek another patchbox kit alltogether. The bad thing about it is I have inlet just a hair for the hinge. :/ :hmm:

 

[tg]

If you look at the originals shown in Schumways and Kindigs books that are thought to date to that early period a large box plate with no sides is the norm, Bivens "invented" much of his furniture, he somewhat pioneered the fantasy gun thing. The best thing to do is find something close on an original and go from there.

 

[rootnuke]

With the way the main patchnox "tip" is designed I can make a real nice rococo flower in it. Then, I can make new side pieces in the rococo style of my choosing and trash the sides that came with the kit.

The sides that came with the original patchbox just look goofy. I cannot vision the rococo pattern with the edges.

 

[rootnuke]

I was looking through my Muzzleloaders Builders Supply No. 12 and in Section 10 Page 7 the patchbox is pictured in their catalog. The picture they use is of an original Isaac Haines with a domed lid. They state the picture is from "Rifles of Colonial America" page 327.
Does anyone have Rifles of Colonial America they can post a picture of this patchbox that is not domed or domed but just of better picture quality.
If I could get a clean picture I would trace the graving on my computer then post it up. Then anyone needing an Isaac Haines patchbox pattern would have it to trace.
If no one has a good picture then I guess I will just need to "squint" my eyes and do the best I can. ::

 

I think you are right, but I am wrestling with this same question....it is hard to date the early guns accurately...most assume the early guns had either wooden box covers or simple brass ones without sideplates....but by 1770 who knows? I have seen what is considered an early Dickert brass box with sideplates that may date from his Christian Springs period (1755-1761)??? I am currently building such a rifle and I too am struggling with whether to go with wood, a simple box or the Dickert CS box cover. to be safe you could leave off the sideplates and just use the central part with daisy engraving....

If you look at the originals shown in Schumways and Kindigs books that are thought to date to that early period a large box plate with no sides is the norm, Bivens "invented" much of his furniture, he somewhat pioneered the fantasy gun thing. The best thing to do is find something close on an original and go from there.

 

[tg]

It is always tough to figure out what is or isn't on the early guns, there were brass boxes with side plates but I suspect there are certain traits that seperate them from the guns of 1780 and on, this is what to look for, and try to find the common themes of the known early, rev war or earlier, boxes and compare this to the known later ones and find some common ground for the early type, one should be able to come up with an acceptable "early" brass box with or without sides.

 

[Birddog6]

I am almost sure the RIGHT patchbox is in RCA or a Kindig book but am not at home to look at it. It is a Isaac Haines patchox design.
The one on the left is a Dickert design & why TOW recommends that with your kit, I have no idea. I am building a rifle similar to yours now & the guy sent me all of the parts TOW sent him & they sent the Left patchbox. It is not going on this rifle as I don't like the looks of it on there. I just don't think it enhances this particular rifle. :imo: Others may like it & that is fine, it just doesn't appeal to me. We are going with the Right one you show or i will design one for it.

Also keep in mind that patchbox kit is made to be TRIMMED to fit the rifle, so you may have to shorten it to make it fit properly & slow with the rifle..

Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Skinning Knives

 

[tg]

At the risk of souding like a broken record TOW and many others are sometimes rather creative with their parts selections and advise when viewed from a historical point. The Haines patchbox in RCA is fro a gun thought to be made in 1772- 1776 which would be a good choice for an early Lancaster of the 1770 time frame, I can scan a pic of it and e-mail it to someone but am not at this time set up with photo bucket and am having problems with my program that transfers files to my server to create URL's. If interested contact me at [email protected]

 

[rootnuke]

Send the pic to rootnuke(at)rootnuke.com

I will convert the image to a more efficient format/size if needed and post it to this thread.

 

[rootnuke]

Thanks to all that sent me a patchbox pic for Isaac Haines. The Isaac Haines is domed so I will order one from MBS Muzzleloader Builders Supply. I called TOW and they do not carry a domed version of Isaac Haines.

 

[rootnuke]

Installing a Isaac Haines domed patchbox on a 1770 Early Lancaster John Bivins which is in the style of Isaac Haines is OK, right?

 

[tg]

I see nothing out of line with that choice, the original is thought to have been made in 1772-1776, and remember that Bivins went off on his own interpretive way so to speak, so your choice might be better than one that he designed.

 

[rootnuke]

Ok, I got the Isaac Haines Domed patchbox in today. Here it is...

As you can see there is a little end piece off to the right which will need to be soldered to the end of the patchbox door. Darn-blast-it! :curse: now I have to learn something else.

 

[LSU TIGER]

Soldering is EASY!!! :RO: Just cut the part to shape, and bevel the inside of both parts to be joined. Clamp them together gently, so as not to distort anything. Apply flux and heat from the outside. Apply the solder and it will run like water around the joint. I wait until it's cooled to remove the clamp. All you should see from the outside is a fine silver line. I use silver solder from the hardware store that has a tube of flux included. Look in the plumbing section. Hope this helps. :relax:

 

[rootnuke]

Soldering is EASY!!! :RO: Just cut the part to shape, and bevel the inside of both parts to be joined. Clamp them together gently, so as not to distort anything. Apply flux and heat from the outside. Apply the solder and it will run like water around the joint. I wait until it's cooled to remove the clamp. All you should see from the outside is a fine silver line. I use silver solder from the hardware store that has a tube of flux included. Look in the plumbing section. Hope this helps. :relax:

ok, well heck I quess I have done it in a way. I have soldered copper gas and water lines, so I cannot be much worse. Only it has too look good.

 

[Zonie]

Of course, before you get too busy cutting and soldering, you will need to position the patchbox on the stock and trim it to match the buttplate.
Then again, you knew that, but I've known people to become so fixated on the task, they forget the rest of the job.

 

[rootnuke]

Of course, before you get too busy cutting and soldering, you will need to position the patchbox on the stock and trim it to match the buttplate.
Then again, you knew that, but I've known people to become so fixated on the task, they forget the rest of the job.

I'm right with you, soldering is the last thing on my list. Today I got about 50% of the domed patchbox inlet. I will complete the balance of inletting Sunday.

After that I will solder the little cover thing on the end of the lid. Then comes tryin to figure out how a door release lever button works.

I'm gonna hunt with this gun this season, even if I have to run up on the deer and beat him to death with it.