Early Muzzleloaders With Coiled Springs?

[Semisane]

Guys, I got to wondering how early coil springs appeared on muzzle loader locks or enclosed actions. After a little on-line research on the history of coil springs I found the first patent for a coil spring was issued in 1763.

And found a European gun using a coil spring as early as 1730.

Now I'm wondering if (when?) coil springs appeared on early (1700's/1800's) American made muzzle loaders. Does anyone have any info on that?

 

[roundball]

Thanks for the coil spring G2 work and posting that...also, here's a SxS version of the early inline:

 

[illuveatar]

My first thought when I saw that pic was Jerry Huddleston, but that gun is over two hundred years old! So why didn't those ignition systems go mainstream back then ? too complicated, expensive, prone to failure, inaccessible ?

That gun looks like it cost a fortune and was never used.

 

[Musketeer]

Hmmm...I've always been bothered that certain mass produced guns that are made in an otherwise fairly traditional style use coil springs in their locks. This alleviates that somewhat. Even though coil springs were not used in the vast overwhelming majority of 18th and 19th century guns, the fact that they could have been is something I never knew before. Many thanks for the info. :hatsoff:

Btw, I hope this doesn't mean we're gonna start discussing in-lines here... :shocked2: :blah:

 

[Dphar]

Guys, I got to wondering how early coil springs appeared on muzzle loader locks or enclosed actions. After a little on-line research on the history of coil springs I found the first patent for a coil spring was issued in 1763.

And found a European gun using a coil spring as early as 1730.

Now I'm wondering if (when?) coil springs appeared on early (1700's/1800's) American made muzzle loaders. Does anyone have any info on that?

Probably about 1970.
Coil mainsprings make a very poor gun lock especially for percussion guns.
Great for cars (if you have good shocks) and a great many other things, firing pin springs in Mausers for example.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=9r2ZU3Yt1yU

 

[ebiggs1]

Hmmm...I've always been bothered that certain mass produced guns that are made in an otherwise fairly traditional style use coil springs in their locks.

I, for one, am glad some flintlocks use coil springs because they don't break as easily as leaf springs do. I have never broke a coil spring but I have had three leaf “V” type springs break.
And I have far more guns with coil springs than leaf type springs so the odds are not in their favor. Plus coil springs are faster.

How do you aim one of those “in-lines”? Seems like the frizzen is in the way?

 

[illuveatar]

How do you aim one of those “in-lines”? Seems like the frizzen is in the way?

It looks to me like the frizzen is fully recessed until the moment of fire. Then the flint advances forward and scrapes against the frizzen, pushing it upward out of the cavity and into view.

This could set a precedent for future inline discussions. :td: I hope there's a sidelocks only policy somewhere in the forum rules.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Heck, why not in-lines? We have guys chatting up recoil pads on caplocks. :shake: Synthetic stocks anybody? :barf:

Oh, coil springs! You don't find them on early side locks as iron coil springs of the small size required weren't nearly as reliable as properly made flat mainsprings. Steel qualities vastly improved through the 19th century giving us the dependable small steel coil springs we have today.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[necchi]

Coil mainsprings make a very poor gun lock especially for percussion guns.

:rotf:
There are Match winners across the Nation that will be suprised to learn that.
:haha:

 

[roundball]

Coil mainsprings make a very poor gun lock especially for percussion guns.

:hmm:
Must be the ones / time frames you're referring to are from back in the day made by a local blacksmith or something.

I used them for a good 15,000-16,000 shots across several T/C Hawken caplocks and Flintlocks over 18 years and never had the first problem of any kind...ever.
:thumbsup:

 

[David W.]

My first thought when I saw that pic was Jerry Huddleston, but that gun is over two hundred years old!

It still could be his. Did I say that? :wink:

 

[illuveatar]

:rotf:

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

I will agree that coil springs are a tad more durable than leaf springs but I disagree that they are "better" that leaf springs. Manufactures of modern high end guns, which still use side locks, use v-springs because they function smoother and faster than coil springs. Having used guns with both, in the same type of action, I was able tell the difference in performance.

Or as Diggory Hadoke says in Vintage Guns: Collecting, Restoring, & Shooting Classic Firearms, “19th century gun makers' began incorporating coil spring locks ... they do not produce the rapid 'snap' action or the instant power of a good leaf spring.”

 

[jdkerstetter]

I am sure part if not all of it is about cost. Coil springs are economical, even the best ones are inexpensive.

A "v" or leaf spring mainspring can not be machine made start to finish. It involves a certain level of craftsmanship if is to be reliable. The best ones are hand forged one at a time, heat treated and hand fit to the action. Done in this manner they can last forever.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[roundball]

"...I disagree that they are "better" that leaf springs..."

I think his context of 'better' was about its reliability in the field...out hunting, that sort of thing.

If a coil breaks around a guide rod, odds are the lock will still work.

If a V-spring breaks, the lock is completely out of commission.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

You are quite right rb, I should have addressed that part of my opinion to ebiggs, in that coil springs are not “faster” than v springs.

 

[hanshi]

I find flat springs to make a "crisper" lock. Coiled springs, used in ML locks, always strike me as slightly "mushy". I agree coiled springs are more durable and have yet to have one break. I have had flat springs break but can only recall one, specifically.

A coiled spring loses energy as it extends so the work decreases at the end of the event. A flat spring is faster and retains its energy all the way through. Both have their uses. I may be wrong, and usually am, but I don't think so. :2

 

[roundball]

You are quite right rb, I should have addressed that part of my opinion to ebiggs, in that coil springs are not “faster” than v springs.

I agree...having used T/C locks with coil springs for a long time, one of the first things I noticed when I started using Chamber's deluxe silers was the power...VERY strong springs that unload immediately for sure.

But...just for some balance to the discussion...I also think it's interesting after all is said and done...as glad as I am that I decided on the experience of some full stock long rifles and the more traditional V-spring type locks...the bottom line is the more expensive customs with the traditional design locks don't kill a deer, a squirrel, a turkey one single bit faster, better, or 'deader' than any of the T/C Hawkens I hunted with for years.
:grin:

 

[jdkerstetter]

Personally, I have never traveled half that far to hunt and not had a back up gun with me and often two.

If space restrictions precluded taking another gun, I would carry another lock....just in case.

Must be the boyscout in me.

Enjoy, J.D.