Ease and accuracy of shooting. 1851 Navy vs 1858 Remington. Thoughts?

[Ed C.]

Ummm, well, what you do to modify your guns is up to you, but frankly, I've got 150+ plus guns and if I paid someone to improve the triggers on each an every one of them I'd be filing for bankruptcy. I think the real pro learns the trigger of each gun and adapts his technique to use its trigger in the best way possible way within the limitations of that gun's trigger action. Improvements in gun actions don't altogether make up for deficiencies in technique. Not saying you have any, and by your description it sounds like you're already shooting quite well. Just realize the gun isn't always to blame, and whatever work you have done to your trigger may in the end not have as much benefit as you think it will. Unless you're engaging in competition, some minor marginal improvement may not be worth it, IMO.

Agree, for most of my pistols, up to 25 yards, I can look at the target and say, "Ok, that person is dead" and be happy but for very accurate shooting I need just about a hair trigger. I am not very steady but I can recognize when the sights are on target and when to pull the trigger. So in that instant I need the gun to fire. And that is why I hate the triggers on semi auto unmentionables....the comparatively long and hard triggers.

 

[wiscoaster]

... And that is why I hate the triggers on semi auto unmentionables....the comparatively long and hard triggers.

... and that's why I posted as I did. That's a good description of most military rifle triggers. They don't want a hair trigger on a battle rifle or a pistol. They want a trigger that takes both intent and effort to pull. Hair triggers are for competitive accuracy, not for battle. These firearms were originally for battle. Honor them as such and treat and use them as such is my viewpoint. Adapt yourself to the firearm, not the firearm to you, unless maybe you just have the one and intend to use it some other way than what it was designed for.

 

[russellshaffer]

My second hand 1858 was developing a hair trigger due to a worn trigger. I took it apart, cleaned it up and stoned a new edge on the trigger. It doesn't shoot until I want it now and I am much happier. I'm not a target shooter.

 

[45D]

Unless you're engaging in competition, some minor marginal improvement may not be worth it, IMO.

Sounds like someone is expecting "minor improvement" ( how in the world do you know what I do for trigger setup ? I've never done any work for you) and has rather limited knowledge on what can be done. Triggers can be dangerously light out of the box, have a negative engagement ( dangerous for you and everyone around you). . . likewise they can be extremely heavy . . . neither has to be "adapted to" . There's no need when they can be given a repeatable pull weight that breaks clean at the desired weight of the owner. Imagine that, all of your revolvers with the same trigger pull rather than a hodgepodge of pulls depending on which revolver!!
I reckon some folks are different . . .

Mike

 

[nick_1]

Has 150 guns and shoots none of them exceptionally well perhaps..... beware the man who only has one gun..
I prefer tools that are as close to flawlessly functioning as possible. often I can achieve that myself. sometimes I have a pro do the work. When its competition time I stop shooting all my other guns and only shoot the competition pistol until the end of the season. If for some reason I need to shoot a different gun the first thing I do is go back to my comp gun and get 3 perfect hits before I can rest easy. Handguns are a different beast than rifles or scatter guns. I could take any of my military rifles out of the safe and get a one off hit if I had to. hitting a 6" plate at 50yards with a pistol under stress is a whole different story and if you haven't shot that pistol recently chances of a hit are slim. If the trigger sucks your chances are none. This ain't no 7yrd feel good target. The 58 that I would like to have the work done on is nice and tight. shoots well from the bench/ truck hood but has ton of creep in the trigger which makes it really hard to shoot well off hand at distances over 20 yrds..

 

[Hawk54]

A better trigger pull is always an improvement and should make a noticeable difference

Sounds like someone is expecting "minor improvement" ( how in the world do you know what I do for trigger setup ? I've never done any work for you) and has rather limited knowledge on what can be done. Triggers can be dangerously light out of the box, have a negative engagement ( dangerous for you and everyone around you). . . likewise they can be extremely heavy . . . neither has to be "adapted to" . There's no need when they can be given a repeatable pull weight that breaks clean at the desired weight of the owner. Imagine that, all of your revolvers with the same trigger pull rather than a hodgepodge of pulls depending on which revolver!!
I reckon some folks are different . . .

Mike

Most just don't know any better.

 

[stephenprops1]

Me? 8yds for me. My normal handgun distance. Especially shooting one handed.
Although I don't think I could have done any better using two hands.

So almost 20ft

8 yards equals 24 feet. ---- Just sayin'...

 

[pacanis]

8 yards equals 24 feet. ---- Just sayin'...

@stephenprops1 , My reply was in response to the post where the poster said if my target was 20ft he took back his comment.
So 8yds is close to 20ft in that respect.


But for you 50' shooters who don't understand shooting a target closer, do the math.
What is the difference between hitting a 6" round target (steel) anywhere at 50', or shooting a 2" group at 20-24'?

I like to try to shoot one big hole. You like to make the target move at 2.5x the distance. Same difference, isn't it?
As long as we both "feel good" about our results, that's all that matters, isn't it?
Although I'd be happier with 1" groups at 8yds. I know the gun will do it. I need to shoot them more.

 

[nick_1]

Its nowhere even close to the same difference. Tiny mistakes at 25ft turn into massive mistakes at 150ft. when you start talking biathlon, close doesn't count. If I miss that 6" steel by a 100th of an inch I still get 5 min added on to my running time even though if it was a zombi I still would have scored a good hit.

 

[pacanis]

Ah... 50 yards.
Somewhere between waking up and my first post I thought you were talking feet.
Yeah, there's a difference then.

BTW, just saw a youtuber shooting an Outlaw at 7yds. Rested. lol
But it told him where his gun was hitting anyway.

 

[wiscoaster]

.... Imagine that, all of your revolvers with the same trigger pull rather than a hodgepodge of pulls depending on which revolver!!
I reckon some folks are different . . .

Mike

Which scenario takes more skill? 1) All guns have exactly the same trigger action and pull; 2) Every gun has its own unique trigger action and pull.

It's kind of like someone changing out all the sights on all their guns to just three-dot sights because that's the only sight picture they understand how to use.

I'll go with the original triggers. And sight pictures. It's more of a challenge. All part of the fun.

 

[45D]

Which scenario takes more skill?

Ummmm, a hair trigger with negative engagement isn't about "skill" , it's about stupidity.

It's kind of like someone changing out all the sights on all their guns to just three-dot sights because that's the only sight picture they understand how to use.

I'll go with the original triggers. And sight pictures. It's more of a challenge. All part of the fun.

I understand you think "your" fun is the "only" fun. Other people's "fun" may be "one hole targets" or fast, timed events or a humane "one shot kill" . . .
Kia's are all some folks want/need or can afford but some folks enjoy the Porsche or Rolls-Royce makes . . .

Mike

 

[Relic shooter]

Ummm, well, what you do to modify your guns is up to you, but frankly, I've got 150+ plus guns and if I paid someone to improve the triggers on each an every one of them I'd be filing for bankruptcy. I think the real pro learns the trigger of each gun and adapts his technique to use its trigger in the best way possible way within the limitations of that gun's trigger action. Improvements in gun actions don't altogether make up for deficiencies in technique. Not saying you have any, and by your description it sounds like you're already shooting quite well. Just realize the gun isn't always to blame, and whatever work you have done to your trigger may in the end not have as much benefit as you think it will. Unless you're engaging in competition, some minor marginal improvement may not be worth it, IMO.

I started collecting & shooting original C&B revolvers 60+ years ago & a local gunsmith helped me become a pretty fair pistol mechanic.
Being familiar with the workings & tolerances on original Colt & Remington made it easier to diagnose issues with with replicas.

One major reason the original Colt & Remington shot so accurate was they had deeper progressive twist rifling. Rifling in the first third of the barrel had literally no twist allowing the ball or slug to fully engage the rifling before the rate of twist increased significantly.
Many earlier replica revolvers featured barrel with very shallow slow-twist rifling making consistent tight groups almost impossible.

A rare few early 'special edition' replica revolvers mfg for competition with progressive twist barrels & a number of serious competitors had their replica revolvers' barrels replaced with new progressive or fast twist barrels.
I've noticed some of the later model Uberti & Pietta revolvers are now available with improved faster twist barrels.
Compare Chamber & Bore Diameters;
Over the years I've come across numerous replica revolvers where one or all of the chambers are 'smaller in diameter' than bore size of the revolver's bore making accuracy impossible. Only fix for this situation is to have the chambers precisely reamed to be slightly larger diameter than the bore.
My personal chamber preference has been to open up the chambers to be one & one half thousands larger than the revolver's bore diam.
Investing in a 6" vernier caliper or a 1"micrometer with a set of ball gauges is absolutely necessary to own if your interested in accuracy
with your revolver or obtaining a proper PRB combo for your ML rifle or pistol .
If your mechanically skilled & have the proper tools you may feel comfortable to do your own tuning & modifications or just send your problem pistol to someone like forum member 45D to make it a performer.
As we can all agree on,, developing a proper load with consistent charges & loading pressures is key to obtaining match grade accuracy.
Hopefully this information will help.
Relic shooter

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

I've had both these guns for 2 or 3 years now and have done some tuning and parts replacement on the 1851 (Pietta). Sights, hammer, bolt spring, adjust mainspring, replace nipples, and install action shield. The Uberti 1858 has been good right out of the box. Replaced nipples on it. Both guns are very accurate off of a rest and both run basically trouble free. For quick single hand shooting I'll feel better shooting the 1851 but for two hand target shooting I do better with the 1858. The grip seems larger, easier for a two hand grip, sights seem better for my eyes and the trigger is lighter so I can get my shot off when the gun is waving around at the proper instant when I'm on target. I was just wondering how others feel about these two and any secrets to improve handling. View attachment 259754

Apologies to those that have heard me say this before.
Ive had several of each and like them both for different reasons. The colts are like sports car: high maintenance and temperamental. Everything has to be nearly perfect to run well. The Remington design is like the daily driver F150: its heavier and not as easy on the eye but nearly always reliable. Buffalo Bill said of all his pistols that the Remmington never failed him. The only one I have right now is a .44 that I inherited and was abused to a standstill. I cleaned it up and worked it over and even with the pitting in the bore (especially the muzzle) it shoots dead on. Only failure to fire was from caps I made and no fault of the gun. My 2 cents.

 

[springfield art]

Speaking of Remingtons, way back in the 1970's there was a gun shop / sporting goods store near me that had a beautiful Remington revolver in the showcase; the wood grips had a particularly attractive color and finish. Don't know what replica maker it was, but I couldn't afford it! Not long after, the entire building caught fire and was totaled! I wondered what ever became of the Remington, not to mention any other guns that were there! I think the store was called Sportsman's Warehouse or similar. (I simply didn't have the money to buy the revolver at the time!) Can't recall the price!

 

[springfield art]

I started collecting & shooting original C&B revolvers 60+ years ago & a local gunsmith helped me become a pretty fair pistol mechanic.
Being familiar with the workings & tolerances on original Colt & Remington made it easier to diagnose issues with with replicas.

One major reason the original Colt & Remington shot so accurate was they had deeper progressive twist rifling. Rifling in the first third of the barrel had literally no twist allowing the ball or slug to fully engage the rifling before the rate of twist increased significantly.
Many earlier replica revolvers featured barrel with very shallow slow-twist rifling making consistent tight groups almost impossible.

A rare few early 'special edition' replica revolvers mfg for competition with progressive twist barrels & a number of serious competitors had their replica revolvers' barrels replaced with new progressive or fast twist barrels.
I've noticed some of the later model Uberti & Pietta revolvers are now available with improved faster twist barrels.
Compare Chamber & Bore Diameters;
Over the years I've come across numerous replica revolvers where one or all of the chambers are 'smaller in diameter' than bore size of the revolver's bore making accuracy impossible. Only fix for this situation is to have the chambers precisely reamed to be slightly larger diameter than the bore.
My personal chamber preference has been to open up the chambers to be one & one half thousands larger than the revolver's bore diam.
Investing in a 6" vernier caliper or a 1"micrometer with a set of ball gauges is absolutely necessary to own if your interested in accuracy
with your revolver or obtaining a proper PRB combo for your ML rifle or pistol .
If your mechanically skilled & have the proper tools you may feel comfortable to do your own tuning & modifications or just send your problem pistol to someone like forum member 45D to make it a performer.
As we can all agree on,, developing a proper load with consistent charges & loading pressures is key to obtaining match grade accuracy.
Hopefully this information will help.
Relic shooter

Your motto is very worthy! I'm impressed; you might be a Professor of Percussions! Knowledgeable persons like yourself could easily write up some small booklets of information garnered from your years of study and perhaps sell them on line? Or simply publish on line. I haven't had need of a pistol mechanic, but like knowing that guys like 45D are around! Thank you!

 

[Relic shooter]

Your motto is very worthy! I'm impressed; you might be a Professor of Percussions! Knowledgeable persons like yourself could easily write up some small booklets of information garnered from your years of study and perhaps sell them on line? Or simply publish on line. I haven't had need of a pistol mechanic, but like knowing that guys like 45D are around! Thank you!

Appreciate the kind words Art, you've also made some very helpful postings.

I was very fortunate as a child to have older shooters with experience help me out. This was several decades ago before the internet existed & without their help I might have gotten frustrated & moved on.
We're fortunate to have a bunch of very talented folks on this forum who are experienced in rifle & pistol shooting, building & collecting areas who have volunteered to help me out as well.

I'm not the best at describing fixes so perhaps I've favored Mike @45D because on several occasions he's posted excellent easy to understand revolver photo improvements & some were new to me.. Never too late for us old dogs to learn new tricks
The ML forum is a great place for us all to learn about better ideas & methods..
Due to age & health related issues I can no longer shoot my long guns but am grateful to have my collection of handguns to enjoy shooting.

 

[Relic shooter]

Apologies to those that have heard me say this before.
Ive had several of each and like them both for different reasons. The colts are like sports car: high maintenance and temperamental. Everything has to be nearly perfect to run well. The Remington design is like the daily driver F150: its heavier and not as easy on the eye but nearly always reliable. Buffalo Bill said of all his pistols that the Remmington never failed him. The only one I have right now is a .44 that I inherited and was abused to a standstill. I cleaned it up and worked it over and even with the pitting in the bore (especially the muzzle) it shoots dead on. Only failure to fire was from caps I made and no fault of the gun. My 2 cents.

I've shot many old original firearms with well pitted bores that still produced excellent accuracy when cleaned up !

 

[wiscoaster]

...

I understand you think "your" fun is the "only" fun.

I kinda get the feeling from your posts that's your point of view.

I say "live and let live" and don't belittle the viewpoints and shooting philosophies of someone who's coming to the sport with a whole different set of criteria and priorities, as I have noticed that some here do, when there are differences in approaches to firearm function and shooting techniques. What works well for one may not be right for others. There is no one absolute right and correct way. Those who think they "know it all" and so derogate any others that do something different but that works for them aren't building the community as a whole.

 

[Ed C.]

... and that's why I posted as I did. That's a good description of most military rifle triggers. They don't want a hair trigger on a battle rifle or a pistol. They want a trigger that takes both intent and effort to pull. Hair triggers are for competitive accuracy, not for battle. These firearms were originally for battle. Honor them as such and treat and use them as such is my viewpoint. Adapt yourself to the firearm, not the firearm to you, unless maybe you just have the one and intend to use it some other way

... and that's why I posted as I did. That's a good description of most military rifle triggers. They don't want a hair trigger on a battle rifle or a pistol. They want a trigger that takes both intent and effort to pull. Hair triggers are for competitive accuracy, not for battle. These firearms were originally for battle. Honor them as such and treat and use them as such is my viewpoint. Adapt yourself to the firearm, not the firearm to you, unless maybe you just have the one and intend to use it some other way than what it was designed for.

I understand the need for the heavy triggers on self defense weapons and I do as you say, train to the trigger. Although I do like setting up the set triggers on the Hawkens to my liking. I just find it such a joy to target shoot with my BP and cowboy era pistols and rifles. I really don't care about sending a wall of lead downrange. One good shot is all that is needed.