EIC Pattern Brown Bess on the Way and a Question

[Dave Markowitz]

The other day I ordered an EIC P-1771 Brown Bess with Nepalese marked lock from IMA USA. After it arrives I want to dismount the barrel from the stock to inspect it underneath. From which side should I drive the pins? I.e., from the lock side or the other side of the stock?

I have the proper drift punches to do this, just want to make sure I do it the correct direction to minimize the chance of damaging anything. I'm also well aware that dismounting the barrel is neither required nor desired on a regular basis. This will just be for the initial inspection.

Pictures of the musket will be forthcoming, of course.

Thanks.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Builders vary on which side is 'correct'. I have also favored entering from the right side. Just use common sense.

 

[BillinOregon]

Dave, hope you get a good one.

 

[Rat]

I think the important thing is to do it the same way each/any/everytime you remove the barrel. (which should not be very often)

 

[Pete G]

For the most part, pins are removed from the same side as lock bolts on a muzzleloader. Of course exceptions occur.

 

[Le Loup]

The other day I ordered an EIC P-1771 Brown Bess with Nepalese marked lock from IMA USA. After it arrives I want to dismount the barrel from the stock to inspect it underneath. From which side should I drive the pins? I.e., from the lock side or the other side of the stock?

I have the proper drift punches to do this, just want to make sure I do it the correct direction to minimize the chance of damaging anything. I'm also well aware that dismounting the barrel is neither required nor desired on a regular basis. This will just be for the initial inspection.

Pictures of the musket will be forthcoming, of course.

Thanks.

I have been removing the barrel on my fusil for cleaning every time I use it for the past 40 years, I drift the pins out from the lock side/right side & replace them the same way. I do not have any problem with the securing pins coming loose.
Keith.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,

I doubt you will get a whole stock so it may be a case of using what you get as a pattern to make one. (Or get the semi-inlet stock blank they offer.
Good luck!

Richard.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Richard,

I did not order one of the untouched guns. I ordered a complete gun with a new stock.

Got the shipping notice tonight.

Dave

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Ah, OK Dave That's good!

 

[Dave Markowitz]

The Bess arrived today. Overall it seems to be in pretty good shape but the lock needs a little tweaking. It won't hold at full cock. The frizzen looks to be in good shape. As expected the bore is rusty. I currently have some WD-40 down it but plan to soak it in Evaporust. I also got one of their musket combination tools.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The pins are installed from the side plate side always on British guns. Also, the screw from the forward sling swivel goes through a lug on the barrel and must be removed before removing the barrel. Loosening the lock bolts also helps.

dave

 

[Artificer]

The Bess arrived today. Overall it seems to be in pretty good shape but the lock needs a little tweaking. It won't hold at full cock. The frizzen looks to be in good shape. As expected the bore is rusty. I currently have some WD-40 down it but plan to soak it in Evaporust. I also got one of their musket combination tools.

View attachment 4908

Hi Dave,

Yes, that Musket is not bad at all. Good for you.

I have collected Musket Tools for years and seen quite a few of the ones made for the EIC or in India or Nepal, though yours is a bit different from others I’ve seen.

The long Pinned on Moveable Arm looks like it is a Priming Pan Scraper.

I assume the Turnscrew Bit Arm fits the Top Jaw Screw Slot, correct?

The sort of thick Arm looks like a Turnscrew Bit to fit the Side Lock Screws, though I may be mistaken about that and I’ve never seen one quite that substantial?

I am especially curious about the Rounded Arm that looks something like a large Pin Punch. Does that have any evidence of Machine Threads on the end of the Arm or maybe an inch or so back from the end? If so, that Arm is to hold the Worm.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

For my pinned muskets I only remove the barrel for deep cleans. A large bore musket doesn't often need to be removed from the stock for cleaning, the Brown Bess's were really designed for easy cleaning with just a rag and worm or jag.

For my Brown Bess's I usually put chapstick around the pinholes and then grease the pins with a wood grease for easy removal.

one note, over time the lugs will wear down with consistent removal and the hole diameters will get larger you'll have to create friction with some silver solder (I usually just shim with a little tinfoil) or just replace.

 

[FlinterNick]

The Bess arrived today. Overall it seems to be in pretty good shape but the lock needs a little tweaking. It won't hold at full cock. The frizzen looks to be in good shape. As expected the bore is rusty. I currently have some WD-40 down it but plan to soak it in Evaporust. I also got one of their musket combination tools.

View attachment 4906 View attachment 4907 View attachment 4908 View attachment 4909 View attachment 4910 View attachment 4911 View attachment 4912 View attachment 4913 View attachment 4914 View attachment 4915

Great looking musket.

For the cock you might have to chamfer the full cock notch, I've done that on a few tumblers over the years.

I lapped out an older repro bess with a Brillo pad mixed with comet, worked well for hard rust removal then lapped with emory compound, barrel was shiny and new.

 

[BillinOregon]

That's a really nice EIC!

 

[Dave Markowitz]

@Artificer:

This is the combination tool: https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-antique-five-function-flintlock-musket-combination-tool

Note that it wasn't advertised as being for the Brown Bess. The movable arm appears to be a pan scraper. The screwdriver blades do not fit the screws on my lock. This may be because it wasn't made for the Bess, or simply because the screws are all pretty boogered.

The punch part does not have any threads on it.

@FlinterNick:

I have no intention of routinely removing the barrel from the stock. I plan to remove it only for an initial inspection and rust removal if needed. I'll then coat the underside in beeswax, make sure the barrel channel has some sort of finish, and reassemble it.

I got some more crud out of the bore tonight. However, my shop is not climate controlled so I've been working on it in my laundry room. It's supposed to warm up over the next couple of days so I should be able to take it outside for more detailed work. I have a tub of JB Bore Paste for lapping.

Thanks to everyone for their feedback.

 

[Artificer]

Dave,

Thanks for the link to the Combination Tool. The Arm with the wide Turnscrew Blade is very interesting and I've not seen it done quite like that before.

Also on the Pins for the Barrel, etc. As Dave Person already mentioned, the pins are driven out from the lock side towards the side plate side. This probably because it is easier to lay the Musket down flat on the Lock Side when disassembling, but I have no documentation for that.

Normally the pins were filed flush to the surface of the wood during final installation when the Musket was assembled. This meant the ends were curved along the stock forearm and were/are much more difficult to "start" moving when removing the pins. Many original Stocks show damage on both sides of the stock around the pin holes, where people were not careful or did not have good tools to drive the pins out.

However on your Musket, it looks to me like the pins may be "standing proud from" or a little above the surface of the wood on each side of the Musket and the ends basically flat but with just a little rounding? This may be an optical illusion on my part, but that is how they look to me? If I am correct, I think you would do well to use a Nail Set a little smaller in diameter than the pins to start the pins moving and then drive them out with the correct size Pin Punch after the heads are driven below the surface of the wood.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

OMG, my mistake of typing too quickly and not noticing how it came out, has led to an embarrassing sentence I wrote above and must correct.

I mistakenly typed the following above: "This probably because it is easier to lay the Musket down flat on the Lock Side when disassembling, but I have no documentation for that."

What I meant to type was: "This probably because it is easier to lay the Musket down flat on the Bench with the Lock Side upwards when disassembling, but I have no documentation for that."

Sorry for the confusion this may have caused.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Dave,

Thanks for the link to the Combination Tool. The Arm with the wide Turnscrew Blade is very interesting and I've not seen it done quite like that before.

Also on the Pins for the Barrel, etc. As Dave Person already mentioned, the pins are driven out from the lock side towards the side plate side. This probably because it is easier to lay the Musket down flat on the Lock Side when disassembling, but I have no documentation for that.

Normally the pins were filed flush to the surface of the wood during final installation when the Musket was assembled. This meant the ends were curved along the stock forearm and were/are much more difficult to "start" moving when removing the pins. Many original Stocks show damage on both sides of the stock around the pin holes, where people were not careful or did not have good tools to drive the pins out.

However on your Musket, it looks to me like the pins may be "standing proud from" or a little above the surface of the wood on each side of the Musket and the ends basically flat but with just a little rounding? This may be an optical illusion on my part, but that is how they look to me? If I am correct, I think you would do well to use a Nail Set a little smaller in diameter than the pins to start the pins moving and then drive them out with the correct size Pin Punch after the heads are driven below the surface of the wood.

Gus

Yea I use a smaller diameter pin drifter and had the pins just at surface level with rounded edges. The pins on this gun I replaced with larger diameter pins from TOW. The older pins were very fragile wires that could be bent with my thumb. On my other Bess the pins are slightly below the surface on the left side so that the drifter can be set into the pin mortise, I could do that to this gun but truth be told I’ve worked on this musket several times reshaping the stock and adding new lugs, pins and thimbles etc the nose cap wood was fractured slightly, easy fix with epoxy. These reinactor guns are banged up pretty hard.

 

[Artificer]

I will never forget the first time I mounted sling swivels on my Old Brown Bess Carbine back in the mid 70's. I didn't know what I was doing, had no one to mentor me and even though I had a copy of one of Bailey's first works, it did not explain about needing a heavy barrel lug for the front sling swivel. I had to get the barrel off to measure the diameter so I could spot where to drill the hole for the sling swivel screw.

The curvature on the barrel pins was rather extreme and even though I had a nice selection of short starter pin punches, I just could not get enough "purchase" on the pins to move them. Took some time thinking, but at last I came up with using a tiny dental burr to grind into one side of the pins and have a flat enough area the starter punches would work to get them moving. Driving them the rest of the way out was easy. I filed the ends of the pins flat/perpendicular to the length so I would never have to do the dental burr thing again and just rounded the edges slightly so if I ever had to take the barrel out again, I wouldn't have to worry about sharp edges gouging the holes in the wood larger. I centered the shorter pins in their holes and filled in the small holes left on both sides of the stock with beeswax. Many years later, I saw an original that was done the same way - as far as traces of wax left in the holes to fill them up.

Gus