Eley wire cartridge

[Glen1313]

Hi everyone,

I just recently joined this forum, although I've visited before as a guest while researching articles. I've learned alot just by reading many of your comments, so thank you for helping me along the way regarding my smoothbores.


I have three at the moment, and I really enjoy shooting them all. I don't have any originals or anything custom made, but I would love to aquire one someday.

In any event, I currently have two Pedersoli SXS shotguns - both in 12 guage- and also one TC .56 smoothbore.

One Pedersoli is a 28" with Mod/full chokes made in 2014 and purchased new. Its a little heavy but i find it does swing well on dove and SCs. The other is a 1985 model with 25" cylinder barrels. I use it for primarily for grouse and rabbit hunting here in western NC. The person that owned it before me, removed the ramrod thimbles and cut the barrel back 3". It came with a 3 piece ramrod. He said the ramrod and thimbles would often would get hung up in brush and such, so he removed them. Not sure about all that but between the two Pedersoli's it definitely handles much better for grouse and quail and it is noticeably lighter.I know...I know...it's not authentic looking etc, but it actually functions well and I got it for a great deal. And it shoots well. I generally use "The skychief load" method in the left barrel which tightens things a bit, while I use VM Stars wad method in the right barrel while grouse and rabbit hunting.

The TC 56 SB is mostly just used for squirrels because honestly I'm not crazy about how it balances (muzzle heavy). It's unique though, in that it's the only Renegade I've ever come across that has a checkered grip and forearm. Very good looking gun, even though it's far from historically accurate. I haven't tried it on deer with RB yet, but I'm anxious to.

In any event, I wanted to introduce myself, and say thanks to all the great information everyone has provided on this forum. Seriously, I've learned alot from this forum.

But,now to the subject...recently I've become very interested learning about the old Eley wire cartridges that were once produced. Ive been able to source most of the components including the copper wire mesh but I havent ordered anything yet. Before I do, I was curious if anyone has ever attempted to recreate the old Eley wire cartridge and if so, how did they perform?

Again, thanks so much to everyone here.

 

[Skychief]

Welcome to the forum Everett. :hatsoff:

I've not tried any Eley type wire cages, but, have read about them.

Should you or anyone else give them a try, color me subscribed. This could get interesting.

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Zonie]

See? Even an old fart like me can learn something here on the Muzzleloading Forum. :grin:

When I saw the title of this topic I thought, Cartridge? Uh-oh. I'll probably have to delete the topic and upset a new member.

After doing some research I found that the "Wire Cartridge" was patented in 1828 and it was made for muzzleloading shotguns.

Quoting a True West web article, it says:

"Although this was the age of the muzzleloader, the shotgun quickly took advantage of self-contained””or at least partially self-contained cartridges.

Thanks to a handy invention known as the “Eley wire cartridge,” shotgunners could greatly reduce the time involved in charging a muzzle-loading shotgun. This product, sold by the Eley Brothers””famed British ammunition producers””was constructed using a cylindrical, soft copper, mesh sleeve, which contained a load of pellets. Packed in bone dust to resist deforming, these pellets varied in size from birdshot to buckshot. This wire mesh cartridge had an outer wrapping of paper to keep every-thing in place. To use it, one simply poured the powder charge into the gun’s bore, dropped a wire cartridge into the muzzle over the charge, and with the ramrod, rammed the entire load in place. This not only made loading faster and easier, but because the wire mesh stayed with the pellets for some distance once the shot charge left the gun’s bore, the shotgun’s effective range was lengthened considerably."
https://truewestmagazine.com/shootin-shot/

Hopefully some of our members can help Everett with his question. :thumbsup:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I haven't made the wire cartridges but I have made cartridges. The tricky part is making it with just the right structural integrity so it doesn't become a slug.

Best of luck and keep us posted

 

[Britsmoothy]

IIRC it has been mentioned before and yes I have read about the caged shot and also recall illustrations.
A few regulars here use newspaper cylindrical wraps or coin wrappers.
Some use strips of greased cloth laid across the bore to make a shot cup.
Many things can be done with a smooth bore and shot.
I don't have the time to fiddle so just get closer. :hatsoff:

B.

 

[Glen1313]

Thank you sir! I'm a big fan, and have read many of your posts the last couple of years. As mentioned, I use your load technique now in the left barrel of my grouse and rabbit gun. Honestly, it's rare I get more than one shot at grouse, but I've nailed a couple of rabbits when I felt the shot density of my first barrel might be a little lacking. It's worked great on both paper and bunnies.

In fact, the revelation of your loading and the pattern improvement is what peaked my interest in the Eley wire cartridges. It may not work out, but I've made some prototypes minus copper mesh and they've showed promise on paper. So, we shall see.

Thanks again for the kind welcome.

 

[F.G. Ford]

See? Even an old fart like me can learn something here on the Muzzleloading Forum. :grin:

When I saw the title of this topic I thought, Cartridge? Uh-oh. I'll probably have to delete the topic and upset a new member.

After doing some research I found that the "Wire Cartridge" was patented in 1828 and it was made for muzzleloading shotguns.

Quoting a True West web article, it says:

"Although this was the age of the muzzleloader, the shotgun quickly took advantage of self-contained””or at least partially self-contained cartridges.

Thanks to a handy invention known as the “Eley wire cartridge,” shotgunners could greatly reduce the time involved in charging a muzzle-loading shotgun. This product, sold by the Eley Brothers””famed British ammunition producers””was constructed using a cylindrical, soft copper, mesh sleeve, which contained a load of pellets. Packed in bone dust to resist deforming, these pellets varied in size from birdshot to buckshot. This wire mesh cartridge had an outer wrapping of paper to keep every-thing in place. To use it, one simply poured the powder charge into the gun’s bore, dropped a wire cartridge into the muzzle over the charge, and with the ramrod, rammed the entire load in place. This not only made loading faster and easier, but because the wire mesh stayed with the pellets for some distance once the shot charge left the gun’s bore, the shotgun’s effective range was lengthened considerably."
https://truewestmagazine.com/shootin-shot/

Hopefully some of our members can help Everett with his question. :thumbsup:

Hello Zonie!
Thank you for a great read.
In fact this whole post was good reading, and informative.
Regards!
Fred

 

[Glen1313]

Thank you for the excellent article posted. It's interesting, the Eley wire cartridge was a fascinating development in the early to mid 19th century and availability even carried into the early 20th century.

From what I've read, it came in a variety of loadings. With regards to the term "Cartridge", it was a bit misleading in that it didn't contain powder to my knowledge; rather, it contained wads and vaious shot loads. And, for 12 guage guns for example they produced not only different loads of shot (birdshot, buckshot, etc) but also there were "color coded" cartridges based on range. For example, there was a long, medium, and standard range loading and they came in different colored paper wraps. So, in other words a long range #5 shot loading was supposedly good beyond 50 yards or more. I'm still doing research on it, but it's particularly fascinating in that it was a very popular item for shotgunners back in the day. Basicly, you loaded your powder like normal, dropped in the Eley wire cartridge (depending on what type of hunting, etc you were doing) and rammed it down on top of the powder and you were good to go. So, while it wasnt what we consider a modern cartridge, it did speed things up and allow for basicly carrying a variety of premade cartridges into the field.

Basicly, it seems regardless of having a cylinder choke the Eley cartridges permitted you to shoot a variety of, in essence, chokes in the field by simply dropping in a long, medium, or standard range "cartridge". And, apparently by all reports it worked very well and sales were great. In fact, as mentioned they didn't stop producing them until around the 1920s.

I currently carry premade charges of various shot loads using shotgun tubes from DGW, and store them much like normal shells in MTM shot shell boxes. I carry wads separately though and still have to make several trips down the bore with my ramrod to load. And, it works fairly well, but my patterns are relatively similar regardless of the load. However, I can see several real advantages of the Eley cartridge: 1) loading is much faster - drop the powder down, and simply load the cartridge and cap 2) your not carrying alot of different components in the field. 3) depending on the cartridge you load, you have the ability to quickly change pattern density at different ranges.

I love my BP smoothbores. I love their simple versitility and their ability to change loads in the field. But, can you imagine how the Eley Cartridge concept would have even improved that? Many BP muzzleloading shotguns were continued to be used well into the 20th century, and I suspect The Eley cartridge was a driving factor.

The trick is going to be to try and figure out how exactly Eley did it; no doubt, the construction may at first be very tedious and involve lots of experimentation. But, they figured it out. No reason we cant.

 

[George]

I've collected some info on the Eley cartridges which might be of interest. Here's an article about them by W. S. Curtis:

Eley's Patent Wire Cartridge
W.S. Curtis - © 2002
The term 'Cartridge' in the context of the muzzle loading era did not always mean 'a complete round with powder'. In shotgun terms, it meant a package containing the shot charge and possibly the wadding which could be loaded intact onto the powder charge already in the barrel. This formerly meant a simple paper wrapped package of shot. It was thought that the degree of scatter from shot barrels was too great and the pre-packaging tended to reduce scatter by protecting the shot pellets lying next to the bore from being rubbed along it and deformed. Thought was given to the idea of trying to extend the range of shot by keeping it together for some distance from the muzzle. The first patent recorded for the so-called Wire Cartridge was that of Joshua Jenour, Patent No. 5570 of November 28, 1827. 'The Cartridge is made of wire, woven with meshes so wide as to allow the shot to be scattered'. The Patent was bought and developed by Eley Brothers, the London firm who made percussion caps, and who then marketed their Patent Wire Cartridge for muzzle loading guns. The first published accounts of this new idea appear in the 1830 (6th Edition) of Colonel Peter Hawker's INSTRUCTIONS TO YOUNG SPORTSMEN, IN ALL THAT RELATES TO GUNS AND SHOOTING, London 1830 (Riling 373). Hawker found that the wire mesh was too fine and too stiff causing, in a percentage of the shots fired, a failure to disperse the shot from the package thus causing it to become a dangerous solid projectile. Hawker's book was also published in the USA in an abbreviated form with an appendix on American hunting and shooting by William T. Porter (Philadelphia 1846). The report on the Wire Cartridge in this edition has been abbreviated too much to make a lot of sense.
There was another patent, that of Thomas French Berney, Patent No. 8143 of July 6, 1839. 'Cartridges are made with two cases, an inner one formed of spiral wire for containing the shot, and an outer case of paper' although his name does not appear in any works that I have studied.
The cartridges were constructed using a cylindrical cage of wire mesh with an outer paper layer attached to a stiff card wad which was then packed with shot (in the USA 'bird-shot'?) mixed with bone dust which kept it steady in the package and helped to prevent the shot deforming. The end was closed off and a paper wad was pasted over it. The card wad at the other end was a tight fit in the bore and the part containing the shot rather smaller. After the powder charge was loaded, the cartridge was inserted with the thinner shot end next to the powder and the stiff wad on top.

This seems illogical at first glance but the idea was that the card wad would hold everything in place and the final ramming combined with the shock of the discharge would cause the paper sleeve to rupture so that the shot could escape through the interstices of the wire mesh in flight. The cartridge was labelled at each end with the shot size and given an outer wrapping provided with a piece of tape to tear it open for loading. The shot size label was also on the end of the outer wrapper. The whole lot were then put up in packets of ten, often with an instruction leaflet enclosed.ave lasted into the early breech-loading period until the introduction of the choke bore. The later cartridges are marked 'For Breech Loaders' and are intended to be loaded into pin-fire and centre-fire cases. These do not seem to have used the outer paper wrapper.
It was soon found that in some circumstances the extended range was too great and this gave rise to three different categories identified by colour coding their paper. The longest range was coloured green and was referred to as 'The Green'. This was defined as being for wildfowl and dangerous except in wide open spaces. The regular wire cartridge was 'The Royal', coloured blue, which was intended for the second barrel to give some extra range when walking up game. The third category was 'The Universal', coloured yellow, which was made without any wire in its construction.
Instruction leaflets were included in the packets of cartridges.

Here are those instruction leaflets mentioned:





And a letter to the editors by the inventor of the cartridges:



Spence

 

[George]

Some photos of them from the web:





And a schematic showing the wire, I think:



They continued making them for breechloaders when they came along:



Spence

 

[Glen1313]

Thats awesome Spence. Great pics, and thank you. I notice the couple labeled for Breech loaders. That's interesting...I'm curious if during the transition to Breech loaders from muzzle loaders if it was also an attempt by Eley to provide a muzzleloading alternative cartridge for breech loading shotguns for the sake of familiarity/versatility? Or perhaps, the new fangled cartridges may have been short in supply, or high in cost?

 

[Glen1313]

I've made some prototypes just messing around the other evening. They look very similar minus the copper mesh. Basicly it's a cartridge containing a overshot wad, 1-1/8 ounce of 5 shot (for example) with a nitro wad on bottom. I wrapped it around a dowel just under bore size I used a common brown bag type wrap that I had scored first on the sides. My hope was scoring all along cylindrical sides will influence the brown bag wrap to easily open up...either upon ramming and/or firing in an attempt to avoid the single slug.

Anyway, I then took colored tissue paper and roll-wrapped one in green (1-1/8 oz #5) and one in blue (1-1/8oz #7 lawrence Magnum). I made up about 10 cartridges in each. I've got pictures but I'm not sure how to upload here yet.

One thing I've noticed when checking loading: Because the wrapped cartridge contains the wads, it may require I use one size under the normal wad recommend for the bore because the cartridges are very tight. In other words, for a 12 guage it may require using 13 or 14 guage wads for example. So, I'm going to order or punch some to test. Main thing is, assuming they perform, they must also fit snug in whatever bore used. I think this is something Eley realized early on as well because they made them for so many different and unusual bore sizes...12, 14, 15, 16, 20, 19.

Anyway, thought I would test them till the copper mesh came in.

 

[Glen1313]

Or perhaps even a plastic mesh containing OS wad, shot w/ bone meal/filler, OP wad - wrapped in a light paper to protect the bore from plastic fouling?

Lots of possibilities out there...all part of the fun and I enjoy experimenting, so we will see.

 

[Glen1313]

I totally understand. Alot of folks don't have the time. Ive enjoyed reading yoir comments over the past couple of years and its helped bring much insight for me. And, honestly my shotguns work just fine using "traditional" methods of loading in most cases. I won't dispute that.

The one area I would like to improve on is pattern density at longer and varoius ranges (cylinder bores) and perhaps a little faster loading on the dove field, a little longer shots at squirrels, and extending my range on my second barrel.

Ive pretty much been a BP hunter for the past couple of years, and rarely use a modern cartridge gun anymore. I cant explain it, i just love BP. Its true, it may not be worth the hastle...on the other hand...seems Eley did pretty well selling these things for nearly 100 years, so my thought is it might be interesting to see what the fuss was all about.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Below are some cartridges that I made...Two problems that ran into were Bore sealing and preventing slugging.
as you can see I solved the bore sealing problem by gluing a leather wad to the bottom of the cartridge....To prevent slugging I incorporated a tail to tear off the top of the cartridge this seemed to prevent slugging. There is no wire in these cartridges.

I hope you post some pictures of your cartridges.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

From my reading, it is what the Elys started their company to make. within a couple years they began making percussion caps which made their company's reputation. I think it was about 1834 that one of the brothers was killed in an explosion. As I recall the wire cages for shot were too expensive for the average hunter and manufacturing fell by the wayside before the patent had expired, in favor of percussion caps, which was far more lucrative.

 

[Glen1313]

Hi Colorado Clyde.

Those are good pics. The last pic looks very similar to the old cartridge with the tear away tab.

I've shot five of the cartridges I described above before, and patterned ok. Not spectacular yet, but no slugging so far. As mentioned above I used a roller scorer to help ease the brown paper roll to come apart easier, and I think that's helped. It's a bit tedious rolling them frankly, but my main focus is to try to find something that patterns acceptably and doesn't behave like a slug, and is quick and easy to to load yet seals well to the bore. After that, and hoping that it produces as I hope, I can work on streamlining the process.

I've got a couple of things I would like to try including the copper mesh Eley simulation, and a different idea expounding on using a variant of the renowned "Skychief load" (Basicly, a premade cartridge much like the one I've already made, but with a fiber wad on top of the charge). The hurdle is there is that the skychief load has the "well lubed fiber wad"...but, based on my experience at the range, Skychief figured something out for sure because, it drastically improved my patterns in my cylinder bores - I haven't tried them on my choked Pedersoli.

Short of taking a container in the field of veg oil, that I could - just prior to loading- dip the fiberwad end of a premade cartridge loaded in the skychief method, I'm not yet sure how that could work. On the otherhand, I'm fine with my cylinder choke pattern in my right barrel as my first shot on upland game. And, being that my left barrel doesn't normally see as much action or loading, it may not be such a hindrance at all to load a "skychief cartridgr", and yet it still would provide a tighter pattern at a longer range while still using a cylinder bore...

I see lots of possibilities here based on the Eley cartridge concept and the skychief load too.

Skychief, to his credit (thank you sir) seemed to have stumbled upon something regarding a component that I'm not sure even existed back in the day. I can find little information regarding a 1/2" cushion wad prior to breechloaders. My thought is the fiber wad, in a strange twist, came out of the early breechloading era when uses in BP shells. Remember, VM Star never used one...I'm not sure such a fiber wad was ever used in muzzleloader shotgun heyday. Maybe, but I've not seen anything to indicate it was on a normal basis. Could be I'm wrong. I'm not sure.

In any event, we all have been told (outside of wasp nests, tow, etc), that wadding procedure consisted of basicly OP Nitro card wad, fiber cushion wad, and OS thin card wad. Oppinion only, but Im not even sure there was a 1/2" cushion wad used back in the day. felt, leather, wads of course seem reasonable but I feel like the 1/2" cushion wad may have been a relatively modern component emerging at the time of breechloaders shells. That reasoning, and the fact a 1/2" fiber wad doesn't help "square" a 12 guage load by ramming a 1/2" fiber object between powder and shot. Just a thought...again, remember VM Star didn't use or recommend using one either. Grant it, he often used jug choked shotguns. Still, I've seen little evidence regarding the mention of any 1/2" fiber wad prior to early, fully contained shotshell development. I, myself, have found them to not help any of my patterns at all.

I tried them at first. In some guns they negatively affected the pattern; in others, they showed no improvement when just using a nitro OP wad and thin OS wad. It seems to me just a waste of time and money eveven loading one...until, Skychief mentioned his results. Now though, there's something to be said for putting one on top of the shot. So...think I will try and load a wrapped shot cartridge in the skychief manner and see what happens.

Having said that, and assuming it wasn't a wad component in its day, what Skychief may have done is taken a 1/2" lubed fiber wad and basicly inverted the loading sequence for something that may not have even really been used at the time? I don't know, it's something I've wondered about. In any event, it works and I highly recommend trying it, as Skychief says for Cylinder bores. Hey, it's worth a shot (pun intended)...

 

[Glen1313]

Right, no doubt, Eley achieved notoriety via Percussion caps. But, Im inclined to believe that they had must have had considerable success with the shotgun cartridge based on reading they continued to produce it well into the 20th century (and for nearly 100 years). I can understand they may have been expensive compared to simply "rolling/loading your own". I suspect the appeal of them back in those days may have been based more on convenience and better than average / and various range performances. Sacrilege I know, but I would love to disect and fire a few originals on paper...so, guess the next best thing is a facsimile. I'll make a few and see.

 

[BillinOregon]

I thought I read somewhere that the Eley cartridge wire was carefully selected for temper and thinness to be well abraded on the trip up the barrel, predisposing it to lose its hold on the shot not too far past the muzzle. I would not be surprised to learn that at some point, Eley packed its cartridges with the dust of ground bison bones shipped across the Atlantic along with other byproducts of our great North American beast.

 

[Glen1313]

Hmmm. I've ordered thin copper mesh I cant really measure the temper at this point but I'll give it go with what comes... Buffalo bone dust filler may be difficult to aquire no doubt, however, I thought I might try common shotshell buffer or cornmeal to keep things tight initially.