Energy

[11th corps]

I have shot my northwest Trade Gun many times with solid ball, but today took it out for only the second time shooting shot.
It seemed to lack energy. I am used to shooting unmentionable shotguns, my load seemed to be very light recoiling, and the plastic water bottle filled with h2o was penetrated on one side but the shot pellets did not exit the other side. I was shooting from a distance of 20 yards.
This is my load
70 G of Goex 2F
over powder card
cushion wad
1 oz of #5 shot
over shot card.

Was my powder charge too light? Any other issues you can point too?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Wrong powder, get some 3f or finer in there and get more shot in there, get some preasure developed
Oh, and lose the so called "cushion" wad, useless......

 

[Brokennock]

I would go to 3f. But, really, what you're describing should have plenty of energy. As long as you have a good gas seal. Does your overpowder card fit nice and tight?

We are talking lead shot, right? Steel does not carry energy like lead does.

I would also remove the cushion wad from behind the shot. Maybe your pattern is too thin due to the cushion wad and you only hit the bottle with some outlying stray pellets.

 

[Woody Morgan]

My 20 gauge load is 60 grains of 3f Swiss, 2 overpowder cards, half of a 1/2" olive oil-soaked cushion wad, 1 ounce of shot and 2 more overshot cards to hold it all in. Builds good pressure, seems consistent and keeps fouling to a minimum. I've patterned it from both barrels of the Pedersoli and am very satisfied it will take game.
Powders clays nicely too.

wm

 

[William Lincoln]

Part of the reason unmentionables have such energy is the crimp on
the brass case building up pressure. Without resistance you loose
pressure which translates into lower velocities. 3f would help. You have to
experiment and "work-up" your loads. Nothing can replace careful adjustments.
And write down your results. The sweet combination will appear.

 

[tenngun]

Use a tuna can. If shot goes through the base it will kill a turkey of a bunny sized mammal
Water represents a lot of resistance. At transonic velocity it might as well be a piece of steel

 

[Britsmoothy]

Part of the reason unmentionables have such energy is the crimp on
the brass case building up pressure. Without resistance you loose
pressure which translates into lower velocities. 3f would help. You have to
experiment and "work-up" your loads. Nothing can replace careful adjustments.
And write down your results. The sweet combination will appear.

That and a wacking big hole in the breech!

 

[11th corps]

Thanks for the tips guys.
I will try out your suggestions next trip.
I do have a couple of pounds of 3F left.
I might try the half cushion wad suggestion and use an extra overpowder card.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have shot my northwest Trade Gun many times with solid ball, but today took it out for only the second time shooting shot.
It seemed to lack energy. I am used to shooting unmentionable shotguns, my load seemed to be very light recoiling, and the plastic water bottle filled with h2o was penetrated on one side but the shot pellets did not exit the other side. I was shooting from a distance of 20 yards.
This is my load
70 G of Goex 2F
over powder card
cushion wad
1 oz of #5 shot
over shot card.

Was my powder charge too light? Any other issues you can point too?

Switch to 3F.
2F will work better if you increase the charge.
Bump it up to 80 grains.

 

[Brokennock]

I'm sorry, no intention to offend. But I just don't see a need for 80 grains with a 1oz load of shot. This just seems like a recipe for a very, very, poor pattern.
Something else is wrong here.
I shoot 1oz of shot over 60 grains of powder and it kills squirrels and pheasants dead. I shoot 1 1/8 oz of shot for turkey and only bump up the powder to 70 grains. An 80 grain powder charge and 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 oz of shot kicked like a mule.

I would try the tuna can, and I would glue it to a piece of paper to put on the patterning board. Make sure you are hitting it with a good bit of the pattern.

@11th corps of you insist on the cushion wad under the shot, or even a half of one, maybe put the other half over the shot. Or try 2 or 3 overshot cards on top of the shot load.
It really seems to me that you are loosing gas and thus pressure somewhere.

 

[3Setters]

At 70 grains, I'm only shooting 7/8 ounce loads. Less shot = higher velocity and higher impact energy. I'm using 7 shot, and the birds I've hit have been hit as hard as using modern shotguns.

 

[Woody Morgan]

I figure a couple of cards start the seal and the fiber wad completes it and provides for lubrication. I only use a couple overshot cards to keep it all in and there isn't much to get in the way of the shot swarm.
Gotta take a good look at the science behind Skychief's stackup. It gets good reviews too.

wm

 

[necchi]

"less powder, more lead. Shoot's further makes dead"

 

[Flintlock]

I've always used 70 grains of FFG with matching load of shot in my 12 gauge percussion double and thought it worked great.

 

[Britsmoothy]

"less powder, more lead. Shoot's further makes dead"

Not always!
Depends on the vent size. Some barrels are choked so the load can be pushed somewhat harder but the pattern is not totally destroyed.
My experience with any powder above 3f is needing equal amounts and or increasing both volumes to get anything useful!
This also gives me cause to believe the oft quoted mantra quoted above is from a period when men used the correct grades of powder, 3f or finer! I find that with finer grades I do indeed only need to use less volume of powder and get a good return in performance.
I also believe 2 and 1f is for heavy conical shooting rifles or smoothbored 1&2g ball guns.

 

[Brokennock]

"less powder, more lead. Shoot's further makes dead"

True, if, the pattern is full enough to hit the target with enough of those higher energy pellets.

 

[Brokennock]

there isn't much to get in the way of the shot swarm.

Doesn't seem that anything in front of the shot, that is part of the load, gets in the way of the shot. Thin cards seem to just fall out of the way. When I shoot at the range with my round ball loads that use wads and cards, the cards that hold the load in are within a few feet of the firing point, usually looking practically unused. I will sometimes find a few more another 5 to 7 feet downrange that are dark on one side and still white on the other, I assume these were between powder and lubed wad.
We do see frequent reports of holes in the shot pattern when heavy/dense objects are placed behind the shot in the load.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I’d measure the bore. Perhaps your 20 gauge needs 19 gauge wads or your 12 gauge needs 11 gauge wads. Tighten up the wads to increase pressure and tighten up patterns.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

All good information
@Britsmoothy mentioned to me in the past that shot likes a rapid acceleration. He puts more critters down with shot in a year than I do in five, so I considered his observations good. So I was told to use 3Fg especially in a cylinder bore.
AND..., he was right as my Pedersoli, which is choked and a caplock, works fine with 2Fg, BUT..., the same load in the cylinder bore trade flintlock guns...70 gr and 1 ounce of #6, #5, or #4 (we have supply problems where I am) had poor results. Changed the powder to 3Fg, not the amount; VOILA game in the bag!

Then it occurred to me that even the modern stuff the shotshell powder is some of the fastest stuff out there when looking at the modern powders for modern guns, thus the principle seems to apply a bit even to the modern stuff.

LD

 

[tenngun]

What works for you is the best.
Ml are forgiving and there is no one best way