Excessive Fouling

[Griz44Mag]

Let me just add, I shoot from the historical side of our wonderful sport.
While I do not care what others do I personally find the lengths that some people go to to be ridiculous... I would like to emulate the way our fore fathers shot and I seriously doubt Lewis Wetzel, Edward Marshall or Jaque Timothy Boucher de Montbruen carried windshield wiper fluid, Heet or any of the other myriad of products with them or used fiberglass rods when out in the woods.

If you want to do that fine, its just not for me. I will try to experience shooting as close as I can to how our ancestors did things and that is why I shoot flintlocks with spit patches and shoot as long as I want without wiping and clean with water after I am done.

You do it your way, I will do it mine.

You state that for those that do it differently than you - well that's OK - but then you call them ridiculous and and attempt to denigrate them.
Not just once - but three times.
There is more to life than playing dress up. MANY of us hunt in camo - with antique weapons. MANY of us practice off a bench or at a range.
Don't be the proverbial pot.
For those of us that do it "our way" we really don't give a $%#n what you think.
And those of us that like our benches and our wiping - we don't go to multiple posts calling the re-enactors ridiculous.
So if you really want to be an originalist - give up your rubber tired vehicle, your refrigerator, electricity and all the rest of modern life and you will truly meet your goal.

 

[French Colonial]

You state that for those that do it differently than you - well that's OK - but then you call them ridiculous and and attempt to denigrate them.
Not just once - but three times.
There is more to life than playing dress up. MANY of us hunt in camo - with antique weapons. MANY of us practice off a bench or at a range.
Don't be the proverbial pot.
For those of us that do it "our way" we really don't give a $%#n what you think.
And those of us that like our benches and our wiping - we don't go to multiple posts calling the re-enactors ridiculous.
So if you really want to be an originalist - give up your rubber tired vehicle, your refrigerator, electricity and all the rest of modern life and you will truly meet your goal.

Bwaa Ha Ha! I think I touched a nerve!

I never said anyone was ridiculous, but some of the things they do are.

Must be the weather.....

 

[Mad L]

I have been reading among various threads lately about "Compression" and "Packing the charge load".
"The more compression the cleaner the blast..." and "Not properly packed until the ramrod bounces out of the barrel" (that last one makes me think of Elmer Fudd!)

But a long read I once read from one who claimed to be a long time expert Sharp shooter explored the physics of Black Powder and what he claimed to be proper loading for efficiency and accuracy.
From memory, he explained:

Black Powder need oxygen to burn, if you pack your charge down hard you remove the oxygen around the powder and essentially create a big thick 'fuse' within the barrel. Rather then getting one Big Bang it has to burn from one end to the other, thus some powder perhaps may not even burn as its pushed out.
His solution was to: Pushe the ball and patch "just down to the powder, stopping just as you hear it begin to crackle", "ideally leaving just the slightest air pocket".

His write up was far more detailed and informative but his general message was to "don't be Elmer Fudd" (I think he was even the one who used that reference). Can't recall if it was a blog or a magazine I had it in.

 

[BadDaditood]

Black powder burns best when slightly compressed.
Agree that too much compression is not consistent, Elmer Fudd makes 2f into 4f.
However the gold standard around the world is .020” compression, ask any bpcr shooter.

 

[BadDaditood]

Shooting without wiping isn't a dream or a stunt at all. I don't wipe between shots for the simple reason that I don't have to! I like tight loads and use the wood, underbarrel rod almost exclusively. My .50 shoots a .490" ball and .024" canvas patch. For hunting I lube with mink oil but prefer Hoppes #9 BP Lube at the range. Rarely do I use 2F.

In order to shoot without wiping between shots follow these simple suggestions (I learned them from someone else years ago). Using thumb and sandpaper smooth the inside of the crown (evenly) so the lands are tapered with a gentle entry into the bore. Get thicker patching material, lube it with Hoppes or a similar liquid lube. With a tight, well lubed prb the bore is wiped clean each time you seat another load.

I’m with Hanshi, two of my most accurate loads is a .440” ball with an .022” denim patch and a .535” ball with .018” ticking patch. (Green Mtn, Colerain and Rice bbls with both square and round bottom rifling)
I was taught to clean the barrel by running a wet cleaning patch down on top of a fresh load. With tight loads this patch comes out clean. Obviously the barrel’s being wiped clean with every load.
That being said, I develop loads for accuracy alone, if it’s filthy and requires a power washer after every shot, that’s what I would do…. Then quickly sell it ;-)

 

[ord sgt]

Do a woods walk.
Do a woods walk where you must hit every target before moving on.
Do a woods walk where you must hit every target before moving on and the person with the lowest time wins.
And that my friends will separate the wipers from the non wipers.

Throw a fire starting portion and a trap setting portion in to really see who has the skills.

Lots of fun if you do not take it to seriously and realize the first few times you WILL screw up.

Try changing a flint while blindfolded in a timed event.

 

[Erwan]

You state that for those that do it differently than you - well that's OK - but then you call them ridiculous and and attempt to denigrate them.
Not just once - but three times.
There is more to life than playing dress up. MANY of us hunt in camo - with antique weapons. MANY of us practice off a bench or at a range.
Don't be the proverbial pot.
For those of us that do it "our way" we really don't give a $%#n what you think.
And those of us that like our benches and our wiping - we don't go to multiple posts calling the re-enactors ridiculous.
So if you really want to be an originalist - give up your rubber tired vehicle, your refrigerator, electricity and all the rest of modern life and you will truly meet your goal.

That's right.
To be honest, with everything that concerns wiping, I can't talk much here: I don't know and don't use American powders...
So, all I can say is that with some powders (Swiss or French) I sometimes have to wipe and sometimes not. The difference comes from the particle size, the coal of the powder (willow, buckthorn, chestnut and others) and the quantity of powder compared to the caliber, the weight of the bullet and the length of the barrel plus some other factors...
Yesterday I shot at 100m (~109 yards) with fairly slow Swiss powder (3Fg) and 500 grain bullets with one of my Tryons, I shot 15 bullets in 9x8cm (convert that to inches : I'm lazy) so no noticeable scatter and no wiping with 60 grain loads, but if I do the same shot all else equal with even slower powder (3Fg) I have to wipe a bit, not each time but sometime, the reason is the wood: Swiss powder is made with black willow and French powder with buckthorn. Those woods are from the same family, but the coals are different...
If I do this with ordinary French hunting powder I have to wipe after each shot: the wood is chestnut....

So is no difference between a good and a bad "wiper" or with stuff or another but is a difference between powders and uses...

So this is what I think, and I'm in accord with myself....

 

[Mad L]

Try changing a flint while blindfolded in a timed event.

I been on one of them Blindfold Hunts before. Had to assemble, load and prime, then stock the beast and it bring it down with one shot, all while blindfolded.
They told me we where hunting Unicorns. When I fired I am still not sure if I got one but there was sure a lot of yelling, screaming, and cursing so I must of hit something, not quite sure as I dont know what one of them Unocorns sound like.

 

[Travler]

If I remember right, Dutch advocated wiping between each shot simply to close down one variable in the loading equation in the quest to be repeatable as possible for max accuracy. I read his stuff, and it is fascinating. Because I don't have a place to do bench or stump gun shooting, I try and do what I can to keep consistent shot to shot. One thing he did was to quantify the amount of lube in the patch got him the best group. But they were dry patches.

I am thinking of how to do the same with wet patches. Maybe a fixed amount of 7:1 balistol to water (or some other ratio) for a given weight of my favorite size and thickness of patches.

Today I soak my patched in a tin by pouring in the "moose milk" and then grabbing the wet bunch of patches and squeeze them in my hand hard and sort of wring them out.

I am not trying to say one method is better at all. I also want to be consistent shot to shot. I really not sure at all that I am as consistent that is possible, but I can say that through 20-25 shots, with this method, I do not get fouling build up and every shot is rammed and seated with the same resistance.

Also, I am not at all the best shooter in our club, but I do hold my own. Usually when I miss, It is a flinch or some other such thing that makes me think of a excuse!

 

[Erwan]

Today I soak my patched in a tin by pouring in the "moose milk" and then grabbing the wet bunch of patches and squeeze them in my hand hard and sort of wring them out.

If your patches are doing their job, you normally don't need to wipe the barrel.....
For me, the wiping is only done with 500 grains long bullets like Pedersoli 318-451-500, never with patched bullets, the ones I shot yesterday for example were these long bullets....
Sometimes I wipe just a bit (it depends on the powder, granulation, charge and caliber) with the Minié bullets...

 

[SPQR70AD]

Mike had a similar issue with his GPR and cured it in his youtube video

I dont understand how the scotch pad stayed on the rod go going up and down. that would be like the patch coming out when you pull the rod out. how did he get it to stay on the rod?

 

[Cpt Flint]

Black Powder need oxygen to burn, if you pack your charge down hard you remove the oxygen

I have been reading among various threads lately about "Compression" and "Packing the charge load".
"The more compression the cleaner the blast..." and "Not properly packed until the ramrod bounces out of the barrel" (that last one makes me think of Elmer Fudd!)

But a long read I once read from one who claimed to be a long time expert Sharp shooter explored the physics of Black Powder and what he claimed to be proper loading for efficiency and accuracy.
From memory, he explained:

Black Powder need oxygen to burn, if you pack your charge down hard you remove the oxygen around the powder and essentially create a big thick 'fuse' within the barrel. Rather then getting one Big Bang it has to burn from one end to the other, thus some powder perhaps may not even burn as its pushed out.
His solution was to: Pushe the ball and patch "just down to the powder, stopping just as you hear it begin to crackle", "ideally leaving just the slightest air pocket".

His write up was far more detailed and informative but his general message was to "don't be Elmer Fudd" (I think he was even the one who used that reference). Can't recall if it was a blog or a magazine I had it in.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry on this one. When powder ignites it creates its own oxygen. I don’t have a degree in pyrotechnics
and don’t need amateur speculation on how to load my longrifle. I go ask the match winners questions and do what they do.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Black Powder need oxygen to burn, if you pack your charge down hard you remove the oxygen

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry on this one. When powder ignites it creates its own oxygen. I don’t have a degree in pyrotechnics
and don’t need amateur speculation on how to load my longrifle. I go ask the match winners questions and do what they do.

YUP - spot on:
Oxygen source for black powder
The oxygen source, in classic English, is saltpeter. The standard chemical name is Potassium nitrate (KNO3). When heated, the stuff gives up a fair bit of oxygen and this is what the charcoal and sulfur get burned with.Dec 25, 2011

 

[Mad L]

Black Powder need oxygen to burn, if you pack your charge down hard you remove the oxygen

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry on this one. When powder ignites it creates its own oxygen. I don’t have a degree in pyrotechnics
and don’t need amateur speculation on how to load my longrifle. I go ask the match winners questions and do what they do.

Amateur speculation telling you what to do?
Insults now?
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed or do you normally have just a sour attitude?
I merely stated what someone else who had stated. It was not directed at you, it was not 'telling' you anything at all. It was posted as a question. And if you think the guy is an "amateur" then look him up and tell him so.
Glad you got a good laugh but how about 'this amateur' suggest you thicken your skin and dont take everything you hear or read so personally.

 

[Mad L]

YUP - spot on:
Oxygen source for black powder
The oxygen source, in classic English, is saltpeter. The standard chemical name is Potassium nitrate (KNO3). When heated, the stuff gives up a fair bit of oxygen and this is what the charcoal and sulfur get burned with.Dec 25, 2011

Good to know. That blows the amateur's article out of the water and know other offended members can sleep well at night.

 

[Cpt Flint]

Amateur speculation telling you what to do?
Insults now?
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed or do you normally have just a sour attitude?
I merely stated what someone else who had stated. It was not directed at you, it was not 'telling' you anything at all. It was posted as a question. And if you think the guy is an "amateur" then look him up and tell him so.
Glad you got a good laugh but how about 'this amateur' suggest you thicken your skin and dont take everything you hear or read so personally.

Professional journalism refers to it as irresponsible journalism. When done by amateurs it is still irresponsible.

 

[Erwan]

I dont understand how the scotch pad stayed on the rod go going up and down. that would be like the patch coming out when you pull the rod out. how did he get it to stay on the rod?

It stays on the plug (jag), the swab is just undersized because Scotch-Brite is thicker than a patch. I did this on one of my Pennsylvania rifles a few years ago and ended up with JB paste...

 

[Griz44Mag]

Good to know. That blows the amateur's article out of the water and know other offended members can sleep well at night.

What I do know from personal experience - if you hard pack the powder when you load - it will ignite a lot slower.
It may be from the inability to spread the fire or it may be like a piece of hardwood - you know how hard it is to get that stuff to burn.
I can't tell anyone WHY it happens - but I can tell them WHAT does happen.

 

[Mad L]

Professional journalism refers to it as irresponsible journalism. When done by amateurs it is still irresponsible.

That is all fine and dandy, but try to act a little more like a mentor. Learn how to share your experiance and wisdom rather then belittle.
There are a Lot of newcomers, like yourself, to this forum who have a lot of questions. There are a lot of those who had been taught wrong by someone, now hears something that points that out.
Lord know much of what I was taught about BP some 15 years ago I came to find was wrong or perhaps just not 'best'.
I came to settle on This forum as the folks here are very helpful (I have been to several others)...try to be one of those to establish your 'Lordship'.
And yes, there will be others coming here with things they have 'read' or they have been 'taught' but all in all they come to seek knowledge and improvement.

 

[Mad L]

What I do know from personal experience - if you hard pack the powder when you load - it will ignite a lot slower.
It may be from the inability to spread the fire or it may be like a piece of hardwood - you know how hard it is to get that stuff to burn.
I can't tell anyone WHY it happens - but I can tell them WHAT does happen.

I do believe that was the whole point of the author I refer to, as I said I was recalling from memory and the article was far more detailed - I was pointing out his "Elmer Fudd" comment vs what I have recently that "it's not loaded proper until the ramrod bounces out of the barrel eight times".

The artical went on discussing the importance of keeping the vent clear, etc and yes, you used the wording I failed; the Speed of Ignition.
He did go on and one about trying to get the pan flash and main charge ignition to be almost undetectable...of sorts