Expected accuracy from Efield rifled musket

[SwanShot]

Hi guys,(guys is a generic term if there are ladies present) :hatsoff:
Ok; I've got me a Euro arms 58 cal repro Enfield 1853 three band rifled musket.
NOTE: This is the first front end loader that I've ever owned, or shot, but I am a very experienced center, and rim fire shooter.
After a few wrong directions I got this thing shooting my own cast Lyman .578" 530 grn conical minies into a 3 inch group at 50 yards.
Is this good, bad, or indifferent? Help me out here guys, I just don't know what to expect.

I'm using 55 grns fff, no wad, beeswax and lard lube. This is the load the guy who sold me the rifle recommended.
I also have a mold for a Lee 500 grn .575". I do not want to talk about the group that those threw,
some of them weren't even on the backer, never mind the target.
So wadda you reckon, am I on track?
Oh---did I say I was newbie?---I'm Australian, don't hold that against me :hatsoff:

 

[TFoley]

Hi guys,(guys is a generic term if there are ladies present) :hatsoff:
Ok; I've got me a Euro arms 58 cal repro Enfield 1853 three band rifled musket.
NOTE: This is the first front end loader that I've ever owned, or shot, but I am a very experienced center, and rim fire shooter.
After a few wrong directions I got this thing shooting my own cast Lyman .578" 530 grn conical minies into a 3 inch group at 50 yards.
Is this good, bad, or indifferent? Help me out here guys, I just don't know what to expect.

I'm using 55 grns fff, no wad, beeswax and lard lube. This is the load the guy who sold me the rifle recommended.
I also have a mold for a Lee 500 grn .575". I do not want to talk about the group that those threw,
some of them weren't even on the backer, never mind the target.
So wadda you reckon, am I on track?
Oh---did I say I was newbie?---I'm Australian, don't hold that against me :hatsoff:

Welcome, Sir, from down there, from me, up here and stuck in the Old Country.

First of all, you don't mention how well your bullets actually fit in the muzzle - they should be a thumb-press fit - that is to say, about a thou or two undersize. After clearing the muzzle, the weight of the ramrod should push them down onto the powder charge, where you can settle it with a firm, but not overly harsh, shove. NO wads are used in the Minié bullet shooting process, BTW.

For a three-bander rifled musket, the service load was 2.5 drams, or 68.5gr of FFg, so your load is a mite on the low side - in fact, I shoot that same load in my Musketoon artillery carbine with a Lyman Minié bullet. However, you are also using too fine a grade of powder - FFg is likely to be better as FFFg is a round-ball pistol/small-bore rifle powder, not a HUGE bullet pusher, which is what is needed in your long-barrelled rifled musket. I'd get some correct grade powder and reserve that FFFg for your Revolvers. Fire five at 60gr and go up in increments until it starts grouping the way you like - only YOU know when that is - and that's the fun of BP shooting.

As my musketoon is a Parker-Hale, I can't recommend you a correct bullet size, but I'm sure you get the idea. Using my Lyman bullets, lubed with Alox [we don't have a handy bee] the Musketoon shoots into a couple of inches at 50m, too, making a large raggedy hole after a few shots. From reading what the BP mavens here do, I'd expect that you'd be looking at that 3" group at a 100m/yards when you have it sorted out.

Hope this helps a bit.

tac

 

[SwanShot]

With what I know now I reckon I'm about right for bullet size. As you say they are thumb press into the muzzle, no wobble, then easy down a clean barrel.
I can push, the bullets through a 580 lube die and it will clean off the surface, just leaving the lube in the grooves.

I'll get some ff powder, and see how I go.
As I said at the start I'm a very experienced shooter and reloader, but that don't mean one damn thing here. :grin: Maybe it 's the challenge that's got me
What In Gods name made me think that this was going to be easy? :haha:

 

[TFoley]

With what I know now I reckon I'm about right for bullet size. As you say they are thumb press into the muzzle, no wobble, then easy down a clean barrel.
I can push, the bullets through a 580 lube die and it will clean off the surface, just leaving the lube in the grooves.

I'll get some ff powder, and see how I go.
As I said at the start I'm a very experienced shooter and reloader, but that don't mean one damn thing here. :grin: Maybe it 's the challenge that's got me
What In Gods name made me think that this was going to be easy? :haha:

Dear Mr Shot - sounds like the diameter is good, it now depends on the thickness of the skirt. Too thin a skirt, and it tends to get blown out on firing, but too thick, and there is not enough expansion to fill the rifling, which is pretty shallow in any case. I'm assuming that you are using pure lead, or lead of the purest that you can find? The Minié bullet really does not care to be made of anything else.

Can you recover any of your fired bullets and have a look-see?

Best

tac

 

[Dphar]

Hi guys,(guys is a generic term if there are ladies present) :hatsoff:
Ok; I've got me a Euro arms 58 cal repro Enfield 1853 three band rifled musket.
NOTE: This is the first front end loader that I've ever owned, or shot, but I am a very experienced center, and rim fire shooter.
After a few wrong directions I got this thing shooting my own cast Lyman .578" 530 grn conical minies into a 3 inch group at 50 yards.
Is this good, bad, or indifferent? Help me out here guys, I just don't know what to expect.

I'm using 55 grns fff, no wad, beeswax and lard lube. This is the load the guy who sold me the rifle recommended.
I also have a mold for a Lee 500 grn .575". I do not want to talk about the group that those threw,
some of them weren't even on the backer, never mind the target.
So wadda you reckon, am I on track?
Oh---did I say I was newbie?---I'm Australian, don't hold that against me :hatsoff:

I would try some FF blackpowder too. 45-65 grains. Service load was 60 and you can try heavier loads too. But the thin skirt minie will start to loose accuracy with loads that are heavy enough to over pressure the skirt at the muzzle.
One must note that these were military arms. That the service load was making about 1000 fps. As a result of the very high trajectory, even to 100 yards and some other factors, like the SB musket that it sprang from, they were never very useful in the civilian world. Nor were they particularly accurate.
I have no information right now as to accuracy but based on the accuracy of the 1870s-80s Trapdoor Springfield with issue ammo 2-3" at 50 is likely ball park for a rifle musket. Fine tuning the load. Bullet design, lube, powder charge may help. Wiping between shots will produce the best accuracy.
It will likely shoot better with a tight fitting patched round ball since Euro Arms shows a 78" twist for the Enfield rifle musket. But, again, the shallow grooves generally found in these will require a tight ball/patch fit.
Dan

 

[SwanShot]

Thanks Tac, pleased to meet you. Please call me Swan, or swannie, or the whole thing. Mr Shot just doesn't do it for me. :grin:
I didn't thik of recovering them so simple, and with a bit of carefull shooting I can do that. The bullets that have given the best accuracy to date have a thick skirt.

 

[SwanShot]

Fortunately we have a class, "infantry issue" to shoot competition in. This distinguishes it from things like the 45 Henry, and Hexagonal bored Whitworth which while military issue, were very much a snipers rifle. They get to shoot in a "sniper" class.
edit:
Sorry Dan, I didn't even say hello :redface:

 

[satwel]

Welcome to the Black Powder fraternity. The most important aspect of shooting a rifled musket is to use pure lead when you mold the minies. It must be soft enough to ensure proper skirt expansion. 3" groups at 50 yards are respectable and it sounds as if you are headed down the right path. Through experimentation with different powder charges and lubes, you should be able to shrink that group.
I shoot the light Lyman minie out of my Enfield M1858 two bander using 45 grains of 3F Goex BP and lubed with beeswax with a little olive oil mixed in. When I first bought it, I shot 2F but I found 3F works better in my rifle. Every rifle likes something different and finding the right combo of powder charge and projectile is part of the fun.

 

[George T.]

I trust you know these darn things are habit forming. You might want to try a 570 round ball with .015 or .018 patches. With 55 grains of 2F most shoot very well. Geo. T.

 

[ian45662]

3F is just fine. 3" is good enough probably. Is that off hand or off a bench? Off hand I would say thats not to bad really. I shoot 2 bullets in my musket. Its not an enfield but it is a civil war type musket. 315 grain semi wad cutter over 40 grains of goex 3F. Lube in the rings and crisco in the base. I can shoot 12 or so rounds as quick as I can load them and accuracy is about the same and it loads easy. I also shoot a 510grn minie with 40 grains of goex 3F lube in the rings but nothing in the base. Both loads will group about an inch @ 50 yards. Barrel is 3 groove progressive depth 1:60 twist. I believe that originally the springfield muskets were 1:72 with progressive depth rifling

 

[Bob E]

Swanshot, The best advice I can give you is to go to the N-SSA forum on thier web sight. These folks live and breath rifled muskets. They actually compete with them and they are far more knowledgeable than most of the "experts" that post here. Cheers! Bob E

 

[Zonie]

I think that is what is know as a "backhanded compliment".

:hmm:

 

[pargent]

Are you in the SSAA ? there are plenty of b/p shooters here in AUS. . You also have a popular model of rife musket for competiton. you may find 70grs. of 2f with a minnie from the ParkerHale mould is a good starting load , personaly I found any bees wax in a lube caused fouling within a few shoots .

 

[Bob E]

I rest my case. Bob E

 

[pargent]

Well smarty pants if I remember rightly the Enfield was in sevice with the British and Colonials could be wrong but it may well have been a British built gun, fact is the ones you lot (both sides ) purchased in the 1860s, were seconds and thirds semi condemed guns. Some go as far as to say that the average British or Colonial trooper wore shoes and could tie his own laces . :blah: FYR

 

[Bob E]

Phil, Actually the Confeds contacted for state of the art , machine made, fully interchangable firearms from London Armory Co. The CSA purchasing agent, Caleb Huse, secured this contract before the Federal govts people arrived in England.The Fed Govt imported many handmade, non-interchangable Enfields, mostly very servicable, reliable firearms that served well until contract Springfields started being delivered. (about 1863) I have no concern or knowledge about the shoes or laces.
Cheers! Bob E

 

[pargent]

British muskets have a series of stamps put on the guns during their service life, these relate to the guns relevent quality or service life.A well used musket may well have been stamped several times during it's life, each stamping has a progressive relevance to the guns condition and it's suitability for issue to what type of troops .USA and CSA Endfields almost allways have these stampings .

 

[nkbj]

Well smarty pants if I remember rightly the Enfield was in sevice with the British and Colonials could be wrong but it may well have been a British built gun, fact is the ones you lot (both sides ) purchased in the 1860s, were seconds and thirds semi condemed guns. Some go as far as to say that the average British or Colonial trooper wore shoes and could tie his own laces . :blah: FYR

Reminds me of my cousin that was on the run for quick selling a truck load of diseased hogs before they started to keel over. Likewise he too later expected to be bailed out. :rotf:
Concerning trying to figure out the right minie diameter for a three groove barrel, expanding a skirt and then seating it into the rifling, then forcibly twist it so that the rifling trims the skirt, then measure the remaining metal. Done a couple of times that will get you really close to finding the right diameter. I have used bored hole micrometers with three evenly spaced contact surfaces and found that the readings didn't provide information of greater utility.

Bore Mikes - Expensive And Unnecessary

 

[Zonie]

That's a neat idea!

Thanks. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike M.]

It's fair, not great. MLAIC shooters in the rifle-musket event will put 13 shots into a 3-inch group offhand.

I'd try the following:
1. Try a charge around 45 grains of 3F.
2. Bed the breech and under the barrel bands. MLAIC rules require sawdust and animal glue. Carpenter's glue will do. Go with as high a proportion of sawdust as possible. If you're not shooting in MLAIC competition, glass-bed it.