Experienced patch readers wanted

[swquiro]

Last week as I was glancing over the local trader in the guns section I saw the following ad: Hawkin, $100. I figured it must be some off-the-wall cheapo, but I couldnt resist making the call. You see, I suffer the same illness that many of you do. Lets call it gunaholism. Its a terrible addiction, and Im a sucker in the presence of an interesting rifle or side-by-side with what seems to be a fair price. I made the call and the seller stated that the gun was a plains rifle from Cabelas that the wife had bought as a present. I wasnt familiar with the Cabelas plains rifle so I asked him to read what was on the barrel. No, he said, the name on the barrel is Lyman, and it is a Great Plains Rifle. Well, as you can imagine, my interest increased geometrically. The next morning found me at the sellers house. Not abused to hell and back as I expected, the rifle appeared very clean, not used much at all. I ran a few patches down the bore and they came out with some brown streaks. I inspected the bore with a bore light and it appeared shiney with no pitting evident. It was too much to resist. THe inevitable occured.

Pardon the long wind. Today I tried her out, starting with 60gr FF and .015 patches. Got about a 3.5" group at 50yd. Then went to 70gr ofsame powder and same patches and balls went all over the place. After one shot I noticed something about 10yd in front of the bench smoking. It was a patch smoldering and all frazzeled up into a ball. I found other patches that looked the same. Obviously we got a problem here. This rifle was the victim of neglect. At the very least the bore needs a good lap job. Help! What all should I do with this rifle to remedy the problem? Thanks in advance for suggestions.

 

[roundball]

Sounds like the bore might be new with some sharp edges.

The powder charge is pretty mild so simply going to a thicker, stronger patch with a good lube might be all you need...example: .018" pillow ticking prelubed with natural lube 1000.

Another alternative if you still have a lot of the .015" patches on hand would be to use the same patches you already have but put a second one down on top of the powder as an extra "firewall" until the barrel gets broken in;

In either case, then just go to the range and enjoy shooting it a few weekends, get it broken in, etc

 

[buckknife]

Could be old patch material that has weeken or just too little lube for the type of powder.Or it may be a terrible pitted bore.If its the bore run a dry tight fitten patch down it and you will feel it as it catches on the rough spots.I had a gun a bought once that did the same thing to a patch but they didnt burn,it was pitted terrible.also have had hot smoldering patches when i shot stripen that had been soaked in the nappa oil and dryed and were getten to be a couple months old in my gpr.Had me confused for a spell because some would burn on the same strip as ones that didnt on the same strip.When i treid it with fresh ones every thing worked fine.

 

A hunert bucks huh?? You ain't hurt at all even if the bore is bad and it likely ain't. We need to know what lube you are using on the patch. That can maker a world of difference. By the way, the Lyman will shoot at least 1.5" at 100 IF it's a round ball twist barrel. You sure it's not a Great Plains HUNTER???? Check that.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Is it possible that the bore may be leaded? I understand that a product called 'Shooter's Choice' is good for removing lead... If your not sure what the person shot in this rifle, conicals or sabots, it might be worth "deleading" the bore... I think as far as patches blowing out and smoldering, the other folks to comment have nailed it down...

 

[Rebel]

If your bore is rough you might try taking some 0000 steel wool and running it up and down the bore about 50-75 times while spraying some WD-40 down the barrel occasionally. This should smooth out any rough spots and should remove any lead deposits.

 

bucky,, I seen that,,they burn a might when they gets old. I likes ta make my patch fresh,,nuff fer a month r so then new. near as I can figer must be sumpthin with the cloth,(?)

I seen yer other post too,,and yer right,,no matter what ya use it's the "school",,,,,,"C"?,,

,,,now ya know,,thanks fer takin the tyme,,don't respond,just pass it on when ya can
god bless you and yours,best wishes.....

 

[Zonie]

It would be interesting to know what patch lube (and how much) you were using.

The only time I've seen a patch smoking after it was fired with this light of a charge is when I didn't use enough lube.

 

[Birddog6]

Sounds to me like the ball/patch combo is not tight enough, gases are escaping & burning thru. You didn't state the caliber, but with a GPR most are using a .005 under bore size with a .015 to .018 patch with it. If you use a .530 ball you will need a .020 patch but they don't group as well in my rifle as the .535 does.
Mine is a .54 cal. & I use a .535 ball, .017 pillow ticking & Lehigh Lube, and 75 grains of FF Goex. It will cut 3 together at 50 yards & about 1.5" group at 100 yards, with an ol blind guy like me shooting.


Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Knives

 

Sharp edges will usually cut the patch... you didn't indicate that!

Finding em' only 10 yards away sounds like the powder is weak. 70 grains of powder should toss em' at least 20 yards. My 777 powder carries em' for 30 yards & they used to look so good flyin' out of my Shenandoah, I was always half-tempted to use the bore-butter lubed .018 tickers again.

Smoking patches with a nowhere-near magnum charge like that generally means not enough lube, old lube or junk lube.

Options I'd try....

1.Add more lube at first
2.if not effective, buy another lube (Lehigh - Ballistol - Moose Milk - Bore Butter - Cabelas Lube - Mink Oil
3.heavier patch
4.fresher or different powder
5.clean that rifling well with a quality solvent & bore brush
6.sell the rifle to me for same price (hunert)

 

[Stumpkiller]

Oooh, I love a mystery. The case of the "Smokin Patch." I find most of my patches between 10 and 15 yards, whether I'm poppin little squirrel loads or blasting full house.

Smoldering could mean it was over lubed and the powder touching it soaked up lube and didn't ignite well. Is the patch black and charred (not just caked in fouling). A "frazzled up in a ball" patch? I find a lot of mine folded with the 'clean' side out. The edges can be pretty frayed - depending greatly on how the patch is cut. The way I lube the edges stay dry and tend to get pretty ratty when fired, and I cut at the muzzle or block, so they tend to be a bit "irregular" to begin with.

A not quite fun but sometimes informative measure is to load a ball without powder and then imediately pull it. The patch should be unharmed (hold it up to the sky - if you see light through tears or worn spots you've got a rough bore and/or lube shortage).

 

[swquiro]

Hey guys, thanks for the input. I guess I need to include a bit more info. First of all, I am not sure if this is a slow or fast twist barrel. I asked the seller and he said that he shot only round balls, but considering that he thought the brand was Cabelas (unaware that it was a Lyman) tells me he was a bit short on knowledge about this rifle. I also asked him what thickness patch gave him the best accuracy, and he stated that he just bought 50 cal patches and didnt know what the thickness was. I will try the ramrod and patch method to see if I can ascertain the twist. The caliber is .50 and I used .490 balls. The patches were Ox-Yoke with just a minimum of lube in them. If I rub these patches between my fingers I get just a barely noticeable film of oil on my fingers. On the next outing I will add some lube (have got Bore butter and Lehigh). Would I be better to try .495 balls? Will also try the extra patch as a "firewall." After a good cleaning last night, the bore definitely is bright and shiney, no pitting evident. I suspect some sharp edges down in there.

 

[Rebel]

If it is indeed a lyman Great Plains rifle the rate of twist should be 1-60". If it has not been fired much the rifling is probably sharp and cutting the patch. I had this happen with 2 new GPR's. I solved the problem by using the steel wool like i posted above. The Lymans are normally a very accurate rifle. They do seem to like a .495 rd. ball instead of a .490, and i use either pillow ticking or #40 drill cloth for patching. Good luck.

 

[roundball]

If those are prelubed OxYoke patches, they have plenty of natural lube 1000 in them...adding more won't be of any help...and could possibly have negative consequences

 

[Birddog6]

Everyone has different experiences with ML's. Mine has been that that every time someone brought a rifle to me they thought was cutting patches, they are not. 25% of the time they crown is cutting them. Most were actually blowing the patch & not cutting them because of too loose a ball/patch combo.

If it was me, I would take the rifle to the range & shoot 100 rounds thru it, clean it good with Ballistol or Shooters Choice & a brush & do it all over. 3-5 outings & you will have the problem solved, you are used to the gun & you can get down to some serious shooting. I would shoot .495 balls & some .015 patches & some Lehigh Lube & possibl a .017 pillow ticking patch.

FYI: If you clean with anything that Removes Lead such as Shooters Chise or Hoppes Lead Remover, you must lube the barrel GOOD when done as it removes ALL the oil & etc. And I suggest lubing it 2 times the day you clean it, then 1 time each day for 2 days afterwards, so you don't have a rust problem.

 

[Darkhorse]

The GPR's have a reputation of sharp spots (burrs?) in the barrel. Mine had a bad spot about 2/3 of the way down. I could feel it when cleaning or seating a ball. It would also collect fouling and try to seize the ball when dirty at this spot.
As Birddog said, shoot it a couple of hundred times and the problem will be solved. Mine acted better about 100 shots.
Also be aware that all pillow ticking pacthes are not created equal.
Years ago I bought several yards of good pillow ticking. When loading with this fabric and cutting at the muzzle my rifle tore or cut NO patches. I also bought some wonder lubed, precut Ox Yoke pillow ticking patches. My barrel cut every one of these until some time after 100 shots.
The solution: I used only the good stuff until my barrel smoothed out. Now it will shoot anything without cutting or tearing.
And it could very well have been the muzzle cutting the patches. At the time I was aware of the rough spots and just assumed the cloth was being cut at that point.

 

[jtmattison]

I have a Lyman Trade Rifle that tore up patches a lot and accuracy with conicals was marginal at times.
I lapped the barrel last week and what a difference!
Patches are no longer torn and when I shoot conicals they stack up on the target.
Try lapping, it may make your day.

Huntin

 

[buckknife]

frazzeled up in a ball,hmmmm idont think even a new rifle with a 15 patch and a .10under ball will do this even if the riflings are sharp,an every smoldering patch i ever had was justs smoken an burn but they werent in a frazzled ball.
Now the old cva hawkin i had when i got it showed only a few streaks of brown in it too,an when ya shinned a light in er it look nice an shinny,but when ya loaded a 15 patch prelubed with bore butter it loaded very very hard,and the patches were found in a frazzled up ball just like yours,i dont remember em smoken but its been a couple years back.
Now i was told to take steel wool on a jag and peroxide and start stroken her.found out after stroken her she opened up more en twice the wounds she had when i started.It must of had rust like scabs all up an down her and the steel wool broke the rest of em open to the pitting below.Now i hope this isnt your case and is something simple as lube and patch size,but consider the person who had it before an ther lack of knowledge of muzzle loaders.could be he was even shooten pyrodex an if he tried the bore butter seasoning thing it could be a real mess in ther.clean the lube out squeeky clean an take a tight fitting real snug patch on your cleanen jag and slowly work it down the barrel in one long stroke.If it stops in several places chances are your barrel is shot.The good news is you can get anuther one from midsouth shooting supply fer 130 bucks or so,an it could be in 50 or 54.Either will fit it.
Lets hope i am absoulty wrong about this and it is your lube an patch but the jag in the barrel dont take long to figer out and it could save you a lot of hours of furstration shooten,an that aint no fun. :no:

 

[riarcher]

Well I'm a sucker.
Let me save you some grief and agravation. Just send it to me (postage due of course) and I'll reemburse you $100 ASAP.

 

[buckknife]

gosh darn i wish you were around when i had the old cva,could of sold it ta ya fer a 100 an made me a 20 dollar profiet,still have that barrel on the back porch an its just as dood shooter as it always was ::That gun hung on the wall for a couple years,its now toten my 36 barrel an finden good use finally,even have a new 50 barrel fer it i aint even shot.
Here a month ago or so i was out shooten my 54 gpr with dennuim and ticklen,the ticklen loaded so hard the lands weekend the material where it had a few burn holes in these spots.I tried a precut .10 patch lightly lubed with some home brew as a buffer patch and it worked,fer some reason i decide to shoot a .10 on the powder and a .10 around the ball with 120gr of black powder.Just tinkering around,anyway it shot 1inch groups at 50 yards this way.I tried just one .10 and it had 2 small burn holes but the accuracy werent there no more.
So even a lightly lubed patch with a huemungus powder charge dont usally burn up into a ball.I have shot the prelubed bore butter jobs in .15 and 530 ball with 2 inch groups at 50 with 80 gr of black and they never burnt up but would burn a small hole in em sometimes.I dont think i ever have had a patch that was cut from rifling or a burr but im sure it can happen,but it would have to have a hole lot of burrs to tear a patch to shreads.
Cours every time a patch is shreaded like this its gonna be leaden the barrel something fierce i would guess.
I still have the memeroys of them nice looken patches just tore something awfull,aint seen em since then i hope i never do again.