experimental method of fitting a stock - need help

[mattybock]

I was fiddling with skeet shooting a year ago and I hit one!... out of 40.
So I was wondering, why is it that I can't shoot for poo, and I've come to the conclusion that there are three keys to accuracy while shooting;
- the fit of a gunstock to the body
- the balance of a gun relative to the hands of the shooter
- the expectation of recoil and jerking (which is made worse by way of a poor fit)
note I didn't say anything about shot patterns, or spread or chokes, etc. These seem to be more popularly discussed issues simply because they are cheaper to fix than having a gun fitted to the shooter, which is just more time consuming and costly that buying off the rack. (economics... blah blah blah). After reading up on the subject, seems the idea stock should be like a suit, tailored to the body in such a way that you can hit what you aim at by looking at the target and pulling the trigger. With rifle shooting the results are better but only with much contortion and sighting.

I couldn't find any resources for fitting a stock other than the most basic things, such as LOP, DAC and DAH, so I came up with my own way based on body measurements and experimented with it by creating a pine mockup with the dimensions that resulted. To test it, I stood 20 or so yards from a target coke can, closed my eyes and brought the mockup to my shoulder and opened my eyes. Success! the mock barrel was on point! I couldn't shoot anything, but the mock up still fit my body. No contortion! The mock up veered to the left, but I suppose that's why casting on/off is done.

But, I've only used the method of fitting on myself, and need independent results to see if the experimental method is universal or just a fluke. If anyone has a big piece of stiff cardboard, a ruler and a pocket knife (or scrap pine and a saw... for the love of Bob don't waste walnut on it!), or is otherwise more experienced with gun fitting then could you tell me if the method works?

length of pull - bend your elbow 45 degrees and outstretch your hand, take the measure from the crook of the elbow to the middle of the index finger. this is the measure of LOP, which is defined as the length from the trigger to the heel of the butt.

length of wrist - measure across the palm of your hand, from the heel to the knuckle of the index finger. this is from the trigger to the drip of the comb

diameter of wrist- the diameter is equal to 2.5 times the diameter of the index finger.

drop at heel- take the width of the hand, with thumb kept at side. This fits the 'heads up' type of shooting, but for those more accustomed to the 'heads down' type, take this measure and multiple by 0.6. Go with heads up by default. I have the suspicion that the heads down style was popularized by manufacturers so as to make stock blanks narrow and thus cheaper.

drop at comb - this is a hard one. Measure from the center of the bridge of the nose, right between the pupils of the eyes, and base of the nose.

length of comb flat - this area gives a curved comb, with was common on some Kentucky rifles but I don't know if this was for accuracy or for style. the width of the index finger x 4.

width of buttplate - width of index finger x 3.

height of butt - same as drop at heel

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

All of the above is nice but you forgot the most important thing: the best fitting gun in the world is useless without practice.

 

[mattybock]

That was the first, and so far third, time I've shot (at) skeet, but I've been shooting rifles since I was about 14, 10 years now. I'm a fair rifle shot(meaning if it doesn't move and I can see it in all my near sighted glory) but still have to contort to get a good sight picture. And that's why this method is being proposed, to banish contortion to the circus.

Have a sheet of cardboard?

 

[Capt. Jas.]

That's not the way to go about those measurements.

 

[gearheart]

1 from 40? Did you quit before ending the second round? A round goes 25 birds, like a box of shells. Station 6 low house is a gimme. How'd ya miss that? Throw out all you know about rifles. This is a different game. Point and shoot. Aiming takes too long. Target should be shot before they cross mid field. They are harder to hit downrange and the timing for doubles goes all to heck. PRACTICE

 

[mattybock]

it wasn't a competition. We had a box of clays and a throwing stick. We either hit it or we didn't.

So is stock fitting of no importance?

 

[mattybock]

this is simply a method that worked for me in a test. I haven't heard of anything better despite searching. But if you'd like to do a mock up with some cardboard, the results from that would be much appreciated.

 

[MSW]

cardboard may not get the job done: if that's your plan, look at 1/4 luan board or even a 1/2 inch piece of plywood - it needn't be anything nice: CDX will work fine ... talk to the local lumber yard - they might even have some scraps

 

[crockett]

Mattybock: the fit of the gun is important- I'm not saying that it isn't but if you only hit 1 out of 40 then you have to fess up to the major reason being YOU. :grin: So...how to fix the problem. Bad practice can impart bad habits that will then have to be overcome. As I understand it you had a box of clay birds and a hand held thrower. Only perfect practice makes perfect so seek help asap.
Try to find a regular trap range and find out if an experienced shooter could stand behind you and give you some help. Winchester is also selling some tracer rounds that let you see where the shot actually went. An experienced shooter may realize you are stopping your swing, etc. Once you know where you are off you can quickly adjust and start hitting some targets. Until you know why you are off- you are blind- you'll have no idea how to correct.
Unfortunately everyone shoots differently so trying to explain lead is impossible. I sort of "catch up" to the clay bird and then swing through while slapping the trigger. That's mostly on a sideways shot. On a going away I sort of float under the bird.
On clays the target starts fast and loses velocity. On an actual bird the bird starts slow and gains velocity. The clay target also has a trajectory and it will "hang" at the top of its flight- the point being that there is an optimal time to shoot a clay target. Every fall when I switch from clay to real birds I go through a brief adjustment phase because they fly differently.
Good luck- wing shooting is an art, rifle shooting (unless doping the wind, etc) is more of a science.

 

[necchi]

crockett spelled it out really well.
Most commercial shotguns are designed well enough to fit 95% of the population.
Custom fitting does help improve a shooters score, usually not from 1-40 to 40-40 but from a shooter score of 45-50 to 50-50.
Some shooter technique and ability is involved.

You say you can't find resources for fitting, here's a link that may help; http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stock+fitting+a+shotgun

 

[ZUG]

When shooting a rifle or a pistol you concentrate on the front sight -- when shooting a shotgun you concentrate on the target and not the bead. The gun fit to you is very important to be a GOOD consistent wing shot as your eye is the rear sight and to get a better view of the moving target keep both eyes open and on the target at ALL times. The gun will follow your eyes to the target when the gun fit is correct and if you don't pick your head up off the stock to look for the target before you pull the trigger. Practice, practice, & more practice - good luck!
By the way a very good friend of mine that I have known and shot trap with since I was 13 - Kay Ohye 18 time first team All-American trap shooter has some books and video's that will help you become a better shotgun shooter Google his name . :hatsoff:

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

You are trying to reinvent the wheel. Your woes with a shotgun don’t sound like a fit problem. The only time I had a student miss as much as you did was because he had a left master eye and he was shooting the shotgun right handed. After the first twenty misses in a row I asked him to close his left eye. He broke the next 15 in a row. That wasn’t the ultimate solution to his problem but it showed one major issue to solve.

A lot of my time spent teaching rifle shooters to shoot shotguns is retraining their thinking and the approach to hitting targets. All rifle shooters are trained to look at their rifles, by that I mean the sights; I have to train them to avoid looking at the shotgun when shooting. One hundred percent of your vision is on the target. You “feel” the position of the shotgun, with your hands, shoulder, and cheek, into place.

I have been fitted by professionals from Beretta and Perazzi factories and there is a lot more to fitting than what you are trying to do. You can start by looking at necchi’s link.

 

[jdkerstetter]

....I have been fitted by professionals from Beretta and Perazzi factories....

Hey Dan, just curious, did they use a cardboard try-stock to do it? :shake: Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

:haha:

 

[necchi]

because he had a left master eye and he was shooting the shotgun right handed.

That's a big deal,,
Didn't take me long to figure out my young son is cross dominant. Right handed/Left Dominant eye.

Instead of trying to mess around with all the tricks, I just raised him to shoot long guns left handed. From age 7 and up it's been all lefty Ml's or ambidextrous single shot CF guns. He always did and still shoots handguns right handed and does better than me.
Happy to report that the time spent has been successful, he's an accomplished shooter with his share of trophies and quite well conditioned to shoot left hand properly at age 20.

 

[mattybock]

And help it did!

I googled "Wild Ed's Texas Outdoors: Proper Gunstock Fit" right off and opened the first thing to come up. (good writing btw), and found the picture reference for fitting.
Seems the two methods for drop at comb are almost identical (corner of mouth to eye vs base of nose to eye), Length of pull is identical, but how we go about finding drop at heel is different- your method is better, so my method is out.
Some measures like wrist diameter and butt width aren't there.

I have Howe's books and will read Greener's.