family rifle

[skrilla]

hello, im new to the forum here and it looks like a great site! i post on the akforum all the time but lurk on other gun sites. i did a post on the akforum about this rifle which belongs to my grandfather that has been passed down years and years. this rifle belonged to my 7th or 8th great grandfather. if you all can tell me some history about it or anything that would be great! my grandfather doesnt know much about it. thanks alot for your time!

crappy cell phone pics....

 

[bioprof]

That's a beaut! Looks like it's in good shape. I'm not an expert, but it looks to me like a Southern Mountain rifle. I can't tell from the picture, but does it have a butt plate? Muzzlecap? If not, then I think it would be what they call a "barn rifle." There are probably others here that can tell you more with better authority. Personally, I think it would be a rifle that anyone would be proud to own.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Welcome aboard!

 

[Trench]

First of all, that is a great looking rifle for its age...however old it is. It's interesting that it doesn't have a patch box.

You might want to consider who owned it, though. It might not make sense that it was owned by your 7th or 8th grandparents. My 7th grandfather was born in 1712 and my 8th was born in 1683.

If your rifle is as old as it looks, then it might have been built in the 1820-1840's. For me, that would be my 4th or 5th grandparents.

 

[brubincam]

-----maybe skrilla's ancesters sprouted wings early in life----- :idunnoOSSIBLE

 

[Flint311]

I'm with Bioprof on this one. Looks "Southern" based on lock, trigger guard, and ramrod entry into stock. Does it have a muzzle cap and buttplate? They may have opted for that instead of patchbox (?). Maybe a "poor boy" rifle (?). Either way, it's a beautiful rifle for sure! You and Grandpa should be proud it stayed in the family and in that condition all these years. Thanks for posting it! :thumbsup:

 

[boar]

Nice Rifle. I do hope you replace that flint, it don't to justice to the rifle :thumbsup: Dilly

 

[jbwilliams3]

Howdy,

Very cool heirloom and good looking rifle. Any idea of the bore size? Do you have a shot of the muzzle you can share?

I would suggest posting on the American Longrifles Forum. Many of today’s top-notch longrifle students and contemporary makers post on that site and can most likely tell you some more specific information on your rifle.

 

[dtkutcher]

I agree with two things... Great Southern Gun and post on ALRF... Don't let anyone mess with it unless you check them out first..

Once again .. Nice gun

Dave

 

[Steve French]

What's that written on the lock? It looks like it reads PHILAD..... which leads me to think it's a Pennsylvania made rifle. Also it has ARM and something else on the lock.

 

[TFoley]

I'm with Bioprof on this one. Looks "Southern" based on lock, trigger guard, and ramrod entry into stock. Does it have a muzzle cap and buttplate? They may have opted for that instead of patchbox (?). Maybe a "poor boy" rifle (?). Either way, it's a beautiful rifle for sure! You and Grandpa should be proud it stayed in the family and in that condition all these years. Thanks for posting it! :thumbsup:

Sir - I've futzed around with the image - there is no forend tip, no butt-plate, and clearly, no lock plate on the left side. The small lip to the top of the butt is an interesting little touch that I've not seen before, either.

This is a very simple, but very graceful gun.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration fund

 

[Tumblernotch]

What's that written on the lock? It looks like it reads PHILAD..... which leads me to think it's a Pennsylvania made rifle. Also it has ARM and something else on the lock.

It's part of Philadelphia. As for the ARM..above, it could be Armstrong. The only known Armstrong who was a gunmaker was in Emmitsburg, Maryland and that was John Armstrong. But a gun with the name Samuel Armstrong is known to exist. There was also a gun barrel maker in Pittsburgh by the name of Crawford Armstrong. Most likely the lock was stamped with the name of a hardware store or other gun parts distributor which was pretty common. Then again, it may not be Armstrong. But I have yet to find another name that starts with those letters involved in gun making.
:idunno:

 

[suzkat]

That's definitely an Armstrong, Philadelphia lock. Get out a copy of Kaufman's The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle. In it, there is
a listing of all the lockmakers and the period when they were making them. This will give you
a good idea of when the gun was made if the lock
is original, which it looks to be.

 

[Tumblernotch]

That's definitely an Armstrong, Philadelphia lock. Get out a copy of Kaufman's The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle. In it, there is
a listing of all the lockmakers and the period when they were making them. This will give you
a good idea of when the gun was made if the lock
is original, which it looks to be.

But not the Armstrong listed in Kauffman's book. That Armstrong worked out of Emmitsburg, Maryland and he is the only one listed. This rifle is also a southern style with a later style of lock than Armstrong's. There may have been an Armstrong who made locks and maybe even guns in Philly, but I haven't seen him yet. A stamped Philadelphia lock on a Southern rifle makes me think it was bought from a northern hardware dealer.

 

[Twice boom]

This might or might not be of any help.
Armstrong John Gettysburg Pa. Active before and after 1813-1817 Died 1827 . Came from Maryland. Made fine flintlock Kentucky rifles. Some with carved stocks and silver inlays..
Twice

 

[MSW]

What DAVET said! don't let anyone mess with it until after you've had it looked at (and possibly appraised) by someone who knows what their doing. (Not some armchair expert, like, me f'rinstance.)
:rotf:

It looks to be a Southern Mountain style rifle, but the locks on those were usually plainer than the one on your rifle. Nothing says that the lock didn't get replaced with a fancier one when one of the great great great grandfathers decided to 'splurge.' I might be wrong- just a thought...

At any rate, it's a cool looking rifle, and you should be proud to own it!

 

[Tumblernotch]

That may be the same John Armstrong of Emmitsburg, Md. That's not far from Gettysburg. In fact it is believed that he was born in Adams Co. Still wouldn't explain the Philly address and this rifle is of a different type. He apprenticed under George Schroyer and his rifles show that influence. I don't have enough reference sources with me to see if there was another Armstrong in that city. Kauffman's book doesn't show any other Armstrong.
:idunno:

 

[Twice boom]

I agree. My "small Arms Makers" By Gardner shows several other Armstrong's .None anywhere near Philly other than John.
And like you I did not find anyone with a last name starting with the letters ARMxxxx out of Philly.
Sorry.
Twice.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Another reason I don't believe that John Armstrong made the lock on this rifle is that the name is stamped. Armstrong made his own locks from what I've read, but he signed his rifles on the barrel. Also, a stamped lock is a good sign that it was mass produced. I tend to believe that this was possibly made by Ketland or another English maker and sold to a hardware company or other gun part distributor and stamped by them. So far I haven't been able to locate any such company starting with ARMxxx in Philadelphia yet. If we knew who built the rifle, it would be faintly possible to find out where he got his locks. That would be a long shot though. If the owner could pull the lock there may be another stamp inside if it's an English lock. I believe I'd already have that gun completely apart if it was me.

 

[Twice boom]

We may be drifting a bit from the original question . Nonetheless I think the list may find interesting according to Gardner Ketland,Thomas and John from Birmingham England took up temporary residence in Philadelphia on November 15, 1797,they secured a contract from the commonwealth of Pennsylvania for ten thousand stands of arms ,of the fashion or pattern of the French “Charleville Musquet.” No records to date of delivery were uncovered but contemporary muskets are found stamped “Ketland &Cie” “United States.”

Twice