FFFF?

[deerstalkert]

one of these days when Oprah isn't on i'll take a pound of my fffg and a pound of my ffffg, and stuff a regular old pipe with capped end and fuse hole with ,Oh say 300 g and touch them off into a cmu block. bet a large amount isn't burned in the barrel. guess i'll have to set up a movie camera.
oh wait i have done this already in my misspent youth, about the time Oprah started! wasted 2 pounds of powder just for s&g's
only muzzle loader i ever saw explode was a smokeless and i consider them neither fish nor fowl.

 

[mlshooter]

When COMPLETELY confined, all black powders produce the same maximum pressure (about 32,000 psi, according to modern Russian researchers) because the chemical composition is identical. However, in a firearm, all the powder does not burn (and may not even all ignite), so granulation size and how well it is packed can make a big difference. When the main charge is lit, the burn must propagate up the charge to the projectile, and the finer the granulation and the tighter it is packed, the slower the propagation. Thus, a finer granulation may have poorer charge ignition than a coarser grain and produce less useful pressure because the projectile is well on its way on top of an unburned column of powder. In eprouvette tests, I have seen some coarser grains provide surprisingly more 'shove' (but less noise) than fine grains. Like anything in muzzleloading, the best test is how something works in your specific situation - so shoot and test away.

 

[J. Paul]

Blackpowder typically gets its granulation sizes (F,FF,FFF, 4F) when screened after Corning. The smaller granulations have more surface area to create a faster burn rate and easier ignition. Weight to weight comparison should show same power potential but with a different pressure spike between granulation size

 

[Britsmoothy]

Blackpowder typically gets its granulation sizes (F,FF,FFF, 4F) when screened after Corning. The smaller granulations have more surface area to create a faster burn rate and easier ignition. Weight to weight comparison should show same power potential but with a different pressure spike between granulation size

How can something smaller have more surface area than something larger ?

 

[deerstalkert]

guarentold ya i have more surface area then i did when i was 4f!

 

[Stantheman86]

Someone opened up a French pistol cartridge from the 1770s and the powder was what we would classify as 4f.

Whether it turned to "fines " over the years or not, odds are the powder that was originally used in some firearms wasn't what we use today.

People screamed at my face (figuratively) since the 90s when I got my first percussion revolver that I can only use 3f in it.

I use 2f in my big Colt repros and some people act like I don't know what I'm doing.

It turns out the original period powder for .44 "Dragoon" calibers was a 2f equivalent.

So do whatever works as long as it's safe and don't hurt your guns

 

[bigted]

Britts, if you take a pound of 1F powder and a pound of 4F powder ... take a kernel of 1F and weigh it. Take the same weight of 4F powder and notice how many kernels of 4F it takes to equal the single kernel of 1F. Now figure how much area the 4F spreads out to in a single layer.

Is not the 4F covering a larger area than the single layer of the kernel of 1F? This constitutes surface area comparison between 1 and 4F powder

Another comparison would be powder in your pan. Why does 4F ignite your main charge faster then say 1F would.

It is like electric line. A single large strand of copper will conduct a certain amount of electricity because the electrons travel on the surface of copper wire whereas a stranded cord of the same diameter will conduct more electricity because in a multiple strand cord there are more surface area for more electrons to travel on.

Having said all that, when you load 60 grains of 4F and tamp it down with the ramrod ... it packs into almost a solid with a moderate amount of pressure on the loading rod ... compared to the same 60 grains of 1F powder under the same projectile loaded with the same pressure on the rod ... Will remain fairly fluffy instead of packing so tightly that the 4F powder does. This is my opinion on the why of the safety of loading the 4F powder. It takes more barrel area to burn all the semi solid 4F that it does for the 1F powder.

I was stunned to discover that my 1860 Colt repro has more recoil with 2F than it does when loaded with 3F powder. The same recoil reduction in an unmentionable revolver when loaded with the same 3F powder compared to loading with 2F.

Ok ok ... done now!

 

[JCKelly]

Pressures somewhat higher have also been found.
Wonder why Russians would study this obsolete substance?

 

[Darto]

I suggest a used copy from Amazon Lyman Black Powder Handbook.
There are ffffG published loads with velocities and pressures listed for 4 replica Colts:
1) Brand not named replica 31 cal. Colt Baby Dragoon 5-1/2" bbl
2) Lyman replica 36 cal. 1851 Navy 7-1/2" bbl
3) Lyman replica 44 cal 1860 Army 8" bbl
4) Ruger Old Army 45 cal 7-1/2" bbl

They list maximum loads and lesser loads.
They list loads for different projectiles
They list loads for different brands of black powder (some are old brands, the book is 1975).
Loads in fffG and different loads in ffffG for every table.

I'm just a guy on the Internet. Suggest seeing it in print from Lyman.
Here is the exact book edition, can buy used for $10 including shipping right now.
https://www.amazon.com/Powder-Handbook-Kenneth-Ramage-editor/dp/0912412070/

 

[Britsmoothy]

Britts, if you take a pound of 1F powder and a pound of 4F powder ... take a kernel of 1F and weigh it. Take the same weight of 4F powder and notice how many kernels of 4F it takes to equal the single kernel of 1F. Now figure how much area the 4F spreads out to in a single layer.

Is not the 4F covering a larger area than the single layer of the kernel of 1F? This constitutes surface area comparison between 1 and 4F powder

Another comparison would be powder in your pan. Why does 4F ignite your main charge faster then say 1F would.

It is like electric line. A single large strand of copper will conduct a certain amount of electricity because the electrons travel on the surface of copper wire whereas a stranded cord of the same diameter will conduct more electricity because in a multiple strand cord there are more surface area for more electrons to travel on.

Having said all that, when you load 60 grains of 4F and tamp it down with the ramrod ... it packs into almost a solid with a moderate amount of pressure on the loading rod ... compared to the same 60 grains of 1F powder under the same projectile loaded with the same pressure on the rod ... Will remain fairly fluffy instead of packing so tightly that the 4F powder does. This is my opinion on the why of the safety of loading the 4F powder. It takes more barrel area to burn all the semi solid 4F that it does for the 1F powder.

I was stunned to discover that my 1860 Colt repro has more recoil with 2F than it does when loaded with 3F powder. The same recoil reduction in an unmentionable revolver when loaded with the same 3F powder compared to loading with 2F.

Ok ok ... done now!

Weight for weight surface area comparison. I missed that. Thank you.
I agree that the fine powder becomes a solid block, nearly.

I just think to much is made of it.
Just use what ever one wishes.
I like the fine stuff, I can use less of it and still get a good return.

 

[deerstalkert]

when i use the fine granulations {and there is a vast difference in granulations) i seat my ball but don't crush the powder column. i get more consistent ignition and i feel better accuracy. my thoughts are that it leaves air space between the grains and lets it combust more evenly through the column. i could be wrong, have been before!.

 

[hawkeye2]

Deerstalkert you may have something there. A good friend shot long range blackpowder silhouettes (cartridge) and he used to put about 10 grains of 1f in the cartridge before his powder of choice claiming the space between the grains gave him much more uniform ignition and therefore results.

 

[deerstalkert]

don't tell my wife that, she knows for a fact i am never right about anything!

 

[gunnyr]

A search on YouTube will find a guy who tested the overloaded, bursting barrel theory - all the way to the barrel being almost full of black powder. IIRC, he eventually achieved barrel damage with the barrel packed full of powder, and the end plugged with two bullets and dirt.

Sounds like a pipe bomb to me.
gunny

 

[Art Caputo]

While maximizing velocity plays a material role when shooting my un-mentionable rifles, its not so much the case with my muzzleloading, particularly when down range ballistics are considered with LRB’s and shot charges. Years ago, I tried 4F for a main charge. While velocities of the 4F were somewhat higher(in a 38” barrel rifle), so was the extreme spread compared to 2F and 3F. The finer 4F granulation was not only harder to handle, but it had a greater tendency stick to the barrel walls upon loading subsequent charges, particularly with an un-swabbed barrel. I speculated that a higher percentage of the smaller 4F charge weight would become de-activated by the fowling, thus creating the higher velocity spread, defeating the intended purpose. The elimination of graphite coating of the 4F may have added to this effect. I understand, that the graphite coating(GOEX) on the coarser powders is used for moisture resistance/flow properties and not used with 4F in order to enhance the flintlock ignition properties. I canned the idea, deciding to use my 4F for priming only.
Just my experience/theory…I don’t think I would die on the hill defending it.

 

[toot]

if back in the day, when they primed with the same powder that was in the horn or flask, carried only one granulation, as in the paper cartridges, why was any need for 4 fg? it is quicker to use only one powder in loading with out the extra times it takes to prime with 4 fg, and load the main charge.

 

[toot]

It's your choice to use whatever type and how much powder to use. I do hope that you have good medical insurance, you know, just in case.

don't because DARWIN'S THEORY will take care of them!

 

[toot]

I have some swamp land ............

and I have a bridge!!

 

[toot]

Pressures somewhat higher have also been found.
Wonder why Russians would study this obsolete substance?

simple, because they are RUSSIANS!!

 

[toot]

guarentold ya i have more surface area then i did when i was 4f!

and I have more surface than I did at 25 yrs, old.