FFFF?

[Britsmoothy]

Magnaflux and 50 years experience as real gunsmith working in industry

Yes but how many damaged pieces did you record of being completely due to the use of 4f?
Or are you hoping 50 years in the trade makes you all seeing?

 

[Griz44Mag]

I was going to write something profound about age and wisdom....
But since I am now old and know better - I decided not to.....

 

[toot]

smart move!

 

[Irishmusket]

I am surprised that this comes up as much as it does. I assumed most people knew better .

 

[Irishmusket]

Yes but how many damaged pieces did you record of being completely due to the use of 4f?
Or are you hoping 50 years in the trade makes you all seeing?

Yes but how many damaged pieces did you record of being completely due to the use of 4f?
Or are you hoping 50 years in the trade makes you all seeing?

A 12 gauge A Pedersoli mortimer shotgun loaded with 100 grains 4f split from the breech plug 10inches the never found the lock he was amazingly unhurt .a Euro arms 1853 Enfield total breech failure a rein actor very dirty and poorly maintained shooting 120 grain blanks 4f serious incident several people hurt .a TC hawken 50 cal double load 200 grains of 4f two patched balls catastrophic barrel failure lost three fingers and his right eye the barrel was blown in half Thats in last 6 years examined in my shop Would you like me to go on. I am concerned about safety No manufacturer recomends the use 4 powder in their guns infact many say never to use it to charge your gun they give service loads 1f or 2f or 3f for loading never 4 f for priming only safety first

 

[Britsmoothy]

A 12 gauge A Pedersoli mortimer shotgun loaded with 100 grains 4f split from the breech plug 10inches the never found the lock he was amazingly unhurt .a Euro arms 1853 Enfield total breech failure a rein actor very dirty and poorly maintained shooting 120 grain blanks 4f serious incident several people hurt .a TC hawken 50 cal double load 200 grains of 4f two patched balls catastrophic barrel failure lost three fingers and his right eye the barrel was blown in half Thats in last 6 years examined in my shop Would you like me to go on. I am concerned about safety No manufacturer recomends the use 4 powder in their guns infact many say never to use it to charge your gun they give service loads 1f or 2f or 3f for loading never 4 f for priming only safety first

Thank you.
The Pedersoli Mortimer 12g does have a light breach and iirc Pedersoli limit it to 70gns1&1/8oz.
Can not comment on the blanks in a poor maintained rifle and an excessive charge. We might be missing a factor.
The tc hawken again, excessive charge, two balls, were they together. Was the powder charge separated or together. Lots of unknown factors that could of contributed to a failure.
With your above examples 3f may of done the same do you think?
I would love to see a manufacturers container that says " never use as to charge your gun". Can you take a photograph please?
I agree, safety first.
So don't use 200gn charges for anything in a small arm. No point anyway.
Keep your firearm clean.
And pay attention when loading.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

This FFFF (no1) boils down to who's make?? Italy used to make Black Silver. Their BS1 was a source of gold for me. 21/4 drms & 1/4oz of 7s from 12g. BS2 was superb, the French took over the make and it fell by the wayside. Swiss No1 is better than good in my flint guns and in the field it self primes. Never had Stateside FFFF so I cant comment. OLD DOG..

 

[Irishmusket]

4 f definitely destroyed the mortimer and the Enfield .How ever the worst one was not mentioned it resulted in a serious accident the shooter loaded 150 grains 4f in a CVA 50 cal inline the rifle that was clean near new with a power belt bullet on the second shot the rifle suffered catastrophic breech failure injuring two bystanders

 

[SDSmlf]

4 f definitely destroyed the mortimer and the Enfield .How ever the worst one was not mentioned it resulted in a serious accident the shooter loaded 150 grains 4f in a CVA 50 cal inline the rifle that was clean near new with a power belt bullet on the second shot the rifle suffered catastrophic breech failure injuring two bystanders

Could you please provide links to the reports on these mishaps?

 

[bobthemotorcycle]

But what about powder dust, that's never been addressed.

 

[Britsmoothy]

4 f definitely destroyed the mortimer and the Enfield .How ever the worst one was not mentioned it resulted in a serious accident the shooter loaded 150 grains 4f in a CVA 50 cal inline the rifle that was clean near new with a power belt bullet on the second shot the rifle suffered catastrophic breech failure injuring two bystanders

We are being asked to assume it was loaded correctly and that 150gns is a service charge(?).
Being an inline we don't discuss thus.
150 gns would be impossible in a trad revolver which is what the OP asked about. In fact 150gns would be unnecessary in a trad long gun!
I don't doubt your word or integrity but am prepared to doubt in the lack of evidence.
I still have not seen warning on the cans of 4f and its sale banned in a blood sucking lawyer rich environment!
Any links to your accounts please.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Are proof loads stamped on Italian tubes? For UK look up proof load On the NET. In Late B/P and modern B/P proof the charge is stamped on the tube by the Proof marks but may be out of sight on the bottom in the wood work Do US barrel makers proof there tubes and mark them. As far as the CVA .5" at 150 grains of powder, what else can you expect ?? 11/2 times the Heavy charges used in British Match Rifles.. In nearly 60 yrs shooting all sorts of Black Powder, like Smoothy I've never seen a warning a on a Black Powder tin or container about Canister 4 or FFFFg..OLD DOG..

 

[NorthFork]

Thank you.
The Pedersoli Mortimer 12g does have a light breach and iirc Pedersoli limit it to 70gns1&1/8oz.
Can not comment on the blanks in a poor maintained rifle and an excessive charge. We might be missing a factor.
The tc hawken again, excessive charge, two balls, were they together. Was the powder charge separated or together. Lots of unknown factors that could of contributed to a failure.
With your above examples 3f may of done the same do you think?
I would love to see a manufacturers container that says " never use as to charge your gun". Can you take a photograph please?
I agree, safety first.
So don't use 200gn charges for anything in a small arm. No point anyway.
Keep your firearm clean.
And pay attention when loading.

Brits summed it up well. These are all over loads or poor maintained weapons. Including the ones listed after Brit made this post. I mean come on! A T/C with 2 balls and 200 grs fffg???? Did the Ffffg even make a difference there?

 

[hanshi]

While it is certainly up to the shooter to follow advice they think is best when loads are involved, any gun improperly loaded can fail catastrophically. However, original, disassembled .45 Colt cartridges have been found to be loaded with a powder similar in granulation to 4F. These old loads managed 900 plus fps in revolvers with iron frames. I would imagine a similar granulation was not eschewed in old c&b revolvers.

I wouldn't hesitate to use 4F in c&b revolvers under .44 cal. I might give some thought to this practice in the big .44s and approach the load carefully. Same with squirrel caliber rifles or maybe a bit larger. I make NO recommendation, just expressing my opinion and what I'd be willing to do.

 

[bigted]

Going from this statement we should see allot of barrels blowing up.

I await just such proof. Never been proven that 4F powder in and of itself caused anything but grins.

 

[FishDFly]

If 4F is such a panacea, why doesn't everyone just buy 4F and stop buying 2 and 3F? Then this would not be
re-hashed every 2 months.

Just wondering.

 

[bigted]

If 4F is such a panacea, why doesn't everyone just buy 4F and stop buying 2 and 3F? Then this would not be
re-hashed every 2 months.

Just wondering.

Not the thing at all! Question is ... "is 4F SAFE to shoot in a Colt aftermarket revolver".

YES!!!

 

[Britsmoothy]

If 4F is such a panacea, why doesn't everyone just buy 4F and stop buying 2 and 3F?

Because they have been scared... .........off by prophets of doom and made to think they no longer have any measure of common sense and the substance will make them behave recklessly!

 

[FishDFly]

Not the thing at all! Question is ... "is 4F SAFE to shoot in a Colt aftermarket revolver".

YES!!!

Then, why is it not broadly accepted and done?

 

[bigted]

Fear and nay sayers. Plain n simple