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I noticed some people shoot ffg and others fffg in their rifles. What are the advantages/ disadvantages of the two?
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Goex 3f25/cs or goex express 3f 25/cs.
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FFg burns slower producing lower pressure.
FFFg burns faster (and cleaner) producing higher pressures.
In modern-steel rifles the pressure does not seem to be an issue. The production guns are almost certainly built to lawsuit-proof safety standards.
In fowlers and shotguns it may be more of an issue.
In antique shotguns and fowlers pressure is an issue.
FFFg burns faster (and cleaner) producing higher pressures.
In modern-steel rifles the pressure does not seem to be an issue. The production guns are almost certainly built to lawsuit-proof safety standards.
In fowlers and shotguns it may be more of an issue.
In antique shotguns and fowlers pressure is an issue.
As was mentioned, 3Fg powder seems to burn a bit cleaner but it does generate higher chamber pressures.
This is not a big issue if your shooting round balls but if your shooting slugs the higher pressures of 3Fg could pose a potential problem in the smaller bore guns.
The old adage used to be that in a .45 or smaller caliber you should use 3Fg powder.
In a .50 or larger caliber you should use 2Fg.
I agree that using 3Fg in the larger (.50 +) calibers is probably safe but in smoothbore guns the old adage should be followed.
As most folks know, or soon learn, these muzzleloaders are often fickle about what you feed them.
Some will shoot better with 2Fg and some will shoot better with 3Fg.
Finding out which granulation your gun likes is part of the fun but once you do determine which powder it likes, stick with it.
This is not a big issue if your shooting round balls but if your shooting slugs the higher pressures of 3Fg could pose a potential problem in the smaller bore guns.
The old adage used to be that in a .45 or smaller caliber you should use 3Fg powder.
In a .50 or larger caliber you should use 2Fg.
I agree that using 3Fg in the larger (.50 +) calibers is probably safe but in smoothbore guns the old adage should be followed.
As most folks know, or soon learn, these muzzleloaders are often fickle about what you feed them.
Some will shoot better with 2Fg and some will shoot better with 3Fg.
Finding out which granulation your gun likes is part of the fun but once you do determine which powder it likes, stick with it.
Dave Rosenthal
70 Cal.
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Both of your .50 caliber rifles will shoot cleaner with 3Fg! What you have to find-out is where the shots land on paper. Some rifles like 2Fg and some 3Fg as far as accuracy goes. Personally I use 3Fg for everything, including my 10 ga. shotgun! It's just personal preference.
Dave
P.S.: IF you wind-up getting some sort of pistol, the 3Fg will be even handier to have around! :thumbsup:
Dave
P.S.: IF you wind-up getting some sort of pistol, the 3Fg will be even handier to have around! :thumbsup:
Tom Compton
54 Cal.
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Funny!
I use FFg in everything from revolver and .32 flintlock to muskets and shotguns. Prime flintlocks with 4F. Cleaning is not an issue as I wipe between shots.
I use FFg in everything from revolver and .32 flintlock to muskets and shotguns. Prime flintlocks with 4F. Cleaning is not an issue as I wipe between shots.
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skinner biscuit said:
I use 3F in everything .54, .58 now I switched from 2F to 3F in the .54's and the .58 but still use 2F in my .12ga Smoothie.
Yeah, I'm with the fffg crowd. I use in in everything from the 32 up to the 62. One of the things that appeals to me besides the cleaner burning is the economical advantage - because of the higher pressures you don't need as much - thus saving powder and money. :thumbsup:
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that seems to have this problem, but I don't like the snappier kick to the 3F over the 2F. My shooting goes to heck as the recoil increases. I get acceptable groups in my weapon's that are over .50 caliber with 2F.
I can't argue with the economics of using 3F to save powder though. If your weapon likes it, and you're not a recoil wimp like me, then by all means use the 3F.
I can't argue with the economics of using 3F to save powder though. If your weapon likes it, and you're not a recoil wimp like me, then by all means use the 3F.
I only buy 3f now. My rifles like it, and I use 10% less per shot. More bang for the buck!
I don't own a Fowler,and with my heavy rifles, recoil is not a problem. My hunting load for deer with my 62, is only 65 grains of 3f, and last month I had a complete pass through with it on a young Buck at about 45 yards.
I had an Elk load of 85 grains worked up, but didn't get a chance to try it out on the BIG deer this time around :grin:
I don't own a Fowler,and with my heavy rifles, recoil is not a problem. My hunting load for deer with my 62, is only 65 grains of 3f, and last month I had a complete pass through with it on a young Buck at about 45 yards.
I had an Elk load of 85 grains worked up, but didn't get a chance to try it out on the BIG deer this time around :grin:
paulvallandigham
Passed On
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Many of the posters above talk about 3Fg powder burning " Cleaner" than FFg powder does. I found this to be true only if a PRB is fired. If you use an OP wad( with both powders, to be fair), between the powder and PRB, I found that both powders burn equally " clean " in my rifle. I therefore believe that the apparently " clean " advantage of FFFg powder is solely related to the fact that it burns much faster, and creates more pressure. Pressure will increase temperature, which in turns makes for more efficient burning.
The real difference between FFg and FFFg relates to the choice of shooting a PRB ONLY. The DOWNSIDE of FFFg when used with a PRB is that the hotter temperature and burning rate will burn your patch with a small amount of powder as the charge, than if you send the ball out the barrel at the same veocity using a larger amount of FFg powder for your load.
If you use an OP wad, it becomes a firewall for FFFg powder, preserving that patch, while providing higher chamber pressures for the FFg, making for cleaner burning, and less residue.
I found in my .50 caliber rifle that my ball is now impacting an inch higher at 50 yards, when I shoot it with an OP wad, and FFg powder. I am going to have to reduce the amount of powder I use in my target load, so any savings I may have using FFFg powder instead of FFg powder is going to be minimized further. I am sure there will be some small savings, but its getting smaller. :shocked2:
I am also sensitive to recoil, perhaps because of the stock design on my gun. But, I much prefer the shove of FFg to the Crack of FFFg powder in my guns, .50 caliber and larger.
Because of comments here, I am going to try using FFFg in my 12 ga. shotgun just to see if I get better patterns, as some report here. I am not an optimist on this issue, however, as using a faster powder runs counter to everything else I have learned shooting Black powder in shotguns when it comes to producing better( denser, more round) patterns.
My recommendation remains what I have told people, and what I have practiced for more than 30 years now- try both powders in your guns and see what works best for you. One of my late best friends could not get his .62 cal. rifle to hit an 8 inch bang plate off a bench rest at 25 yds, using FFg powder loads. He eventually tried using FFFg powder- counter to the usual "rule " -- and found the gun loved that powder, and shot one-hole groups out at 50 yds. Now, he died before I discovered the merits of using OP wads, and I have no idea how his gun would shoot the two different powders if OP wads were used. But, for the rest of his life, he told people with large bore rifles, and shotguns to try FFFg powder even in these guns, to see what would work best. :thumbsup:
The real difference between FFg and FFFg relates to the choice of shooting a PRB ONLY. The DOWNSIDE of FFFg when used with a PRB is that the hotter temperature and burning rate will burn your patch with a small amount of powder as the charge, than if you send the ball out the barrel at the same veocity using a larger amount of FFg powder for your load.
If you use an OP wad, it becomes a firewall for FFFg powder, preserving that patch, while providing higher chamber pressures for the FFg, making for cleaner burning, and less residue.
I found in my .50 caliber rifle that my ball is now impacting an inch higher at 50 yards, when I shoot it with an OP wad, and FFg powder. I am going to have to reduce the amount of powder I use in my target load, so any savings I may have using FFFg powder instead of FFg powder is going to be minimized further. I am sure there will be some small savings, but its getting smaller. :shocked2:
I am also sensitive to recoil, perhaps because of the stock design on my gun. But, I much prefer the shove of FFg to the Crack of FFFg powder in my guns, .50 caliber and larger.
Because of comments here, I am going to try using FFFg in my 12 ga. shotgun just to see if I get better patterns, as some report here. I am not an optimist on this issue, however, as using a faster powder runs counter to everything else I have learned shooting Black powder in shotguns when it comes to producing better( denser, more round) patterns.
My recommendation remains what I have told people, and what I have practiced for more than 30 years now- try both powders in your guns and see what works best for you. One of my late best friends could not get his .62 cal. rifle to hit an 8 inch bang plate off a bench rest at 25 yds, using FFg powder loads. He eventually tried using FFFg powder- counter to the usual "rule " -- and found the gun loved that powder, and shot one-hole groups out at 50 yds. Now, he died before I discovered the merits of using OP wads, and I have no idea how his gun would shoot the two different powders if OP wads were used. But, for the rest of his life, he told people with large bore rifles, and shotguns to try FFFg powder even in these guns, to see what would work best. :thumbsup:
shdwlkr
40 Cal.
I use 3f in my rifles 32 to 54 caliber but still use 2f in my shotgun because I am not sure when it was made.
Only thing that I have found is in the larger calibers it is a good idea to use 10-15% less 3f then you used in 2f.
As others have said one powder makes things much easier.
Only thing that I have found is in the larger calibers it is a good idea to use 10-15% less 3f then you used in 2f.
As others have said one powder makes things much easier.
I chronographed the difference between 2f and 3f in my .58 virginia rifle, ann the velocity difference was pretty dramatic. I want to say the difference was 200fps on average with an equal charge, so a 90 charge of 3f was basicly equal to a 110grn 2f charge out of my .58. If you matched the loads by velocity I saw very little difference in fouling, recoil, and accuracy, but it was a pretty small test sample. 1F really lost lost the fps's and fouled pretty bad to boot.
skinner biscuit said:
I do FFFg in my flinter so I can carry one horn for the prime and main charge. Simplifies my life. Does seem to clean up easier and produce less fouling between shots.
paulvallandigham
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Remember that in cartridge guns, you are igniting the powder with modern primers. AND, you are shooting a much heavier bullet, with a lot of contact between the side of the bullet and the wall of the bore, compared to shooting a RB. All that added friction and weight cause chamber pressures to rise considerably in these cartridges, where it does not do so( without a little help) shooting RBs out of muzzle loaders. That "little help" is using OP wads behind the PRB as both a firewall, and additional friction to increase chamber pressure( and temperature). The use of fillers instead of an OP wad will also perform the same function, if the volume of filler compressed is similar, but slightly larger compared to that OP wad. The grain of the filler also makes a difference in the amount of pressure it creates.
If you don't clean your barrel between shots, using a Corn meal filler allows the filler to be poured down the barrel loosely, where it then scrapes all the crud ahead of it, and out the muzzle, as the next shot is fired. If you use an OP wad in lieu of such a filler, the OP wad tends to push the crud down into your powder charge. That may foul the powder to some extent, depending on the relative humidity at the time. You will see stringing vertically on the target of your shots when this is happening.
If you don't clean your barrel between shots, using a Corn meal filler allows the filler to be poured down the barrel loosely, where it then scrapes all the crud ahead of it, and out the muzzle, as the next shot is fired. If you use an OP wad in lieu of such a filler, the OP wad tends to push the crud down into your powder charge. That may foul the powder to some extent, depending on the relative humidity at the time. You will see stringing vertically on the target of your shots when this is happening.
What ever you said :snore: The 1F powder shoots very good in large bore RB M/Ls. In a flint lock .58 or .62 Etc. with heavy charges. The 1F provides a flame channel thru long powder charges and burns very clean. Try it tonight and call me in morning. :rotf:
