What is the law in IL. for shipping a muzzleloader to a person in Arizona, I bought T/C Hawken online, the person in IL. tells me he is required by law to ship to an FFL in AZ. by my home, is he correct?
FFL?
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Not federal law. I don't know about Illinois law.
He may be confused, or living in Illinois has him afraid to do anything.
He may be confused, or living in Illinois has him afraid to do anything.
I’m not 100% sure about this, but I don’t think you need to ship a primitive muzzleloader to an FFL. The ATF is not really concerned about primitive firearms. But Illinois might have some goofy laws due to all the gun crimes in Chicago
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Yes. From Gunbuyer:
"ALL MUZZLELOADERS / BLACKPOWDER FIREARMS (handguns, long guns) MUST SHIP TO AN FFL DEALER."
illinois-state-restrictions - Gunbuyer
That's talking about shipping to Illinois. Probably have to check elsewhere for the shipping from Illinois.
I looked on the BATFE website and didn't find anything pertinent. Good luck finding anything from them. A phone call is probably your best bet.
I did find a video from muzzleloaders.com about shipping and they say it depends on what muzzleloader and what state.
I did find a video from muzzleloaders.com about shipping and they say it depends on what muzzleloader and what state.
The residents are required to have a FIreArms Identification Card so would seem any transaction involving the selling or buying would required a FFL.
Myself I’d cancel the buy unless he wants to pony up for the additional charges.
Myself I’d cancel the buy unless he wants to pony up for the additional charges.
appalichian hunter
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Break it down and ship in separate packages, label them as wood blank, metal rod and machine parts. No lying as that is what they are basically. Might cost a bit more to ship but it gets the job done.
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Talk to your local dealer. The gun is not an FFL required gun. The dealer can send a FFL copy by fax to the seller, if need be. The dealer would only have to accept the package as an addressee. There would be no background check required or federal form to fill out. The dealers involvement would be minimal. If he is a decent man, the charges should be very minimal. Were I the dealer, I might charge you 5 or 10 bucks for my time. If the dealer is game, buy something from him. Gun oil, box of ammo, or whatever.
There are states where a gun, cap and ball example, is a gun. Some folks will only ship to an FFL to avoid any legal issues. Ship to an FFL and the receiving FFL will know the laws they are required to comply with. Ship an FFL required gun to New York resident and you are in trouble in New York and may have issues legally even though in your state it is not an issue. Have one in Georgia dealing with that in the news years ago. Just easier to do it FFL to FFL. They are used to shipping. Why bother with UPS, FEDEX, USPS. FFL's do it all the time and no need to argue laws with folks. They are all different.
CaptainKirk
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Depends on who you ask. Cabela's and Old South Firearms will no longer ship TO Illinois without an FFL, as Illinois considers muzzleloaders 'firearms'. It's very stupid, really.
there are several states that require ffl for black powder guns. in and out . i guess because it is on the books in that state it needs to go to ffl to come off of the books. some cities have regs. as well .
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But Dixie Gun Works will ship BP guns directly to Illinois residents without a FFL.
Those that do not are just covering themselves.
CaptainKirk
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Maybe I should find out....
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I don't understand......Sounds like purely harassment. If m/l has no serial # , and builder isn't reqd. to put one on the gun , how will the govt. know what is being shipped? What's the legal standard? Guess I'm out of touch .
I think Il. does require some sort of paperwork for that deal. I've bought several Mussleladers off Gun Broker and only had to go through an FFL but my FFL dealer just waited until he got it, called me handed the box, and said bye. A few of them I called and told them either they ship to me or I won't bid or buy because I don't live in a state that has any restrictions on muzzleloaders. It's worked every time but once.
The last flintlock long rifle I purchased off Gunb...... required shipping to an FFL. Cabelas agreed to accept it. But the numskull who took it in from the loading dock marked the caliber on the intake document as ".45 Colt"!!!! When I went to pick it up it took two hours and visits from two "suits" to take pictures of it to prove it was not a modern firearm and approve letting it go to me. Did not have to fill out the federal forms, just Cabelas' black powder form. Sales rep was so embarrassed he did not charge me the FFL transfer fee.
Tom
Tom
An Internet muzzleloading forum or website selling guns are a poor place to get legal advice. Don’t see it holding up in court. Might be best to consult with the correct jurisdictions and government agencies involved. I purchased a muzzleloader from a work acquaintance that lived in Illinois, and the below is what he quoted from an Illinois government website. His gun, his state, their rules. As I remember it, Illinois classifies muzzleloaders as firearms. Gun/muzzleloader I received from Illinois was sent to my FFL, but there was no transfer, no 4473. But Illinois was happy with the compliance. It was sent to my FFL. My FFL just shook his head while saying how grateful he was that he didn’t live in Illinois.
I imagine that some will argue that this rule doesn’t apply to Illinois residents shipping muzzleloaders to addresses outside of Illinois, even with the pesky statement ‘if the transfer was not completed within this State, the record shall contain the name and address of the transferee’ included. And personally, I would not avoid doing business with someone in a state or province just because their laws seem a bit overbearing when compared to what we are used to. The deals are where you find them.
(https://www.zilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1657&ChapterID=39)
(b) Any person within this State who transfers or causes to be transferred any firearm, stun gun, or taser shall keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 years from the date of transfer. Any person within this State who receives any firearm, stun gun, or taser pursuant to subsection (a-10) shall provide a record of the transfer within 10 days of the transfer to a federally licensed firearm dealer and shall not be required to maintain a transfer record. The federally licensed firearm dealer shall maintain the transfer record for 20 years from date of receipt. A federally licensed firearm dealer may charge a fee not to exceed $25 to retain the record. The record shall be provided and maintained in either an electronic or paper format. The federally licensed firearm dealer shall not be liable for the accuracy of any information in the transfer record submitted pursuant to this Section. Such records shall contain the date of the transfer; the description, serial number or other information identifying the firearm, stun gun, or taser if no serial number is available; and, if the transfer was completed within this State, the transferee's Firearm Owner's Identification Card number and any approval number or documentation provided by the Department of State Police pursuant to subsection (a-10) of this Section; if the transfer was not completed within this State, the record shall contain the name and address of the transferee.
I imagine that some will argue that this rule doesn’t apply to Illinois residents shipping muzzleloaders to addresses outside of Illinois, even with the pesky statement ‘if the transfer was not completed within this State, the record shall contain the name and address of the transferee’ included. And personally, I would not avoid doing business with someone in a state or province just because their laws seem a bit overbearing when compared to what we are used to. The deals are where you find them.
(https://www.zilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1657&ChapterID=39)
(b) Any person within this State who transfers or causes to be transferred any firearm, stun gun, or taser shall keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 years from the date of transfer. Any person within this State who receives any firearm, stun gun, or taser pursuant to subsection (a-10) shall provide a record of the transfer within 10 days of the transfer to a federally licensed firearm dealer and shall not be required to maintain a transfer record. The federally licensed firearm dealer shall maintain the transfer record for 20 years from date of receipt. A federally licensed firearm dealer may charge a fee not to exceed $25 to retain the record. The record shall be provided and maintained in either an electronic or paper format. The federally licensed firearm dealer shall not be liable for the accuracy of any information in the transfer record submitted pursuant to this Section. Such records shall contain the date of the transfer; the description, serial number or other information identifying the firearm, stun gun, or taser if no serial number is available; and, if the transfer was completed within this State, the transferee's Firearm Owner's Identification Card number and any approval number or documentation provided by the Department of State Police pursuant to subsection (a-10) of this Section; if the transfer was not completed within this State, the record shall contain the name and address of the transferee.
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