File knife

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Trkdriver99

40 Cal.
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Messages
230
Reaction score
1
Would it be right to leave some of the file marks on a file if you made a knife from it? I am in process know and have a deer antler for handle. I was wondering would it look hookie with some of the marks left on it?

Ronnie
 
I think it looks good!
I made a thrower out of a horseshoeing rasp and it has a lot of markings on it, gives it a snakeskin effect on one sideand file grooves on the other.
some of the handmade from file knives I have seen look great, it ads to the personality of the blade.
 
i hav seen a lot of early knives with file teeth still in the blade, so it is pc if thats what you want to do.
 
This depends on how you feel on historical correctness, and what period you want to represent. Documented 18th c. file knives seem to be rare. File knives in the 19th c. are much more common. In the 18th c., files were very precious, and were resharpened when they dulled, and were hand cut to start with. A very long and tedious job, in most cases, one tooth at a time. Many were soft iron, and case hardened, which would not make a good knife anyway. I have read that a file cutting machine was patented in England sometime just previous to the last quarter of the 18th c., but have seen no mentions of when they may have been imported to the colonies, or how prevalent machine made files may have been. Others, such as Mike Roberts, or Mike Ameling, would likely have much more info than I do, but even if they became available sooner than I believe, they still would have been a cherished, and expensive tool that would not be discarded lightly. They would have been re-sharpened to the point of being useless as a file, then maybe made into a knife, assuming that they were steel, rather than iron, which is another question. If you are doing 18th c., and want to be safe in your correctness, I would say no, leave no traces of teeth, but if you are into 19th c., you would probably be safe enough. Many have read Madison Grants book on primitive knives, in which he dates quite a few file knives into the 18th c. , but his dateing is very questionable to say the least. I am not saying knives were not made from files in the 18th c., only that I would think them to be rare, and not as common as some believe.
 
From my reading,some file marks were purposely left in the knife to assure the customer he was getting good steel.(well, good for the 18th c. anyway!)
 
I think we sometimes forget there was no attempt to seek "crude" or "home-made" by our forefathers. If something was made to be just functional, it was because that was the best they could do with the time available, skills the individual had (he/she might be doing something outside their expertise) or the raw materials available.

So, I'd leave the file marks in if:
1) impossible to get out w/o losing too much metal
2) I was looking for a backwoods-made item.
 
horse shoe rasp kinda looks like a carp :rotf:
100_0914.jpg
 
Rich, I believe he was refering to leaving some of the file teeth, not file cuts. Minor file cuts are fine, but if the use of files as knife steel was not common in the 18th c., I would suggest not letting the teeth show, if one wants to be safe in his persona makeup. If PC is of no concern, then it matters not. I just question the use of files as knife blades in the 18th c., as being a common thing. In the 1760's, you just didn't run down to ACE hardware and buy a new file when yours went dull. You either made it, re-sharpened it, or payed a smith big bucks for a new one. Once machine files became common, I'm sure things were different, but even at that, were they case hardened iron, or steel, in the beginning?
 
Wick, I mis-wrote and did mean file teeth, not markings from filing a blade. Sometimes it is very hard to grind down so far that the file teeth impressions do not remain. But either way (leaving file teeth marks on a knife made from a file or leaving file scratches on a blade), I think there's a tendency to suppose that "crude was the style" in the 1700's. Look at swords and you get a very different impression. It is beyond most of our capabilities to replicate the fine style and finish. So i think any knife with forge marks or file teeth or scratches from grinding or filing the blade are best for a backwoods persona, where things had to be made from other things as best as one could, sometimes.

Back to your question- I am pretty sure that files and rasps were made from wrought iron and then case hardened during the mid-1700's. My buddy Tom Curran is making some little rifflers that way and they cut like crazy- much better than commercially available products unless one goes with the super-expensive hand-cut Euro ones.
 
Case hardened iron is what I have thought for a long time. That is why I discourage my customers from ordering file knives for 18th c. personas. If they insist, I comply, but do tell them that I don't think it was common, if done at all. I do like file steel though. Nicholsons anyway, which appear to be w-2. In my experience, only 01 is better for holding an edge, as far as common steels go, and that can be a close call.
 
Wick set me straight on this stuff a while ago...
The funny thing about all this is... I've been looking for old files to do some smithing on and normally second hand stores want as much as $2 a piece for old files. (that's insane) It is really time consuming to get all the teeth marks off of a file. Why not buy a chunck of 3/4" O1 drill rod and beat one out? It's way cheaper and easier in the long run. I don't know about you guys but I would much rather spend an hour in front of my forge than and hour grinding all those teeth off after I annealed the blade back.
That's just my 2 cents.
Regards
Loyd Shindelbower
Loveland Colorado
 
:thumbsup: Very good advice Loyd. I have read about fur trade era knives with the file teeth left in then, but I haven't come across many from 18c. Check out "The knife in homespun america". You might be able to get it from your local library. It's a good read. :hmm:
 
You can trust Nicholsons. They are reported to be W2, which has a tad of tungsten in it. I know from using them for many years, they hold a most excellent edge, and are easy to heat treat. Most other files are reported to be 1095, but I believe them to be W1. I have read that 1095 is simply W1, that did not meet the required specs for W1. The carbon content in 1095, can vary quite a bit, from batch , to batch. Either is a very good knife steel also, but I would give the edge, so to speak, to W2 with it's touch of tungsten. Some, but not all O1, has a touch of tungsten also. This just depends on the brand.
 
BillinOregon said:
Loyd: Where are you getting your O1 drill rod? I pick up old Nicholsen files for 75 cents at the junk shop, but really must try with known, good steel.
I'm looking at an Enco flyer I just got in the mail and 5/8" W1 is going for $6.69 for 3 foot lenghts. That's enough steel to make a bunch of knives. 1/2 is actually a better size to work but an average sized knife is pretty thin using 1/2 stock. By the way, 3/4" drill rod is a
B!#tch to work. I also buy from Fastel. There's a Fastel right in my town. They have an entire rack of O1 drill rod. I feel like a kid choosing candy when I look at the rack. This knife building thing for me has gone really wrong. Staring at a rack of drill rod like it's candy is really wrong.
By the way, If your going to start working with drill rod, here's a hint. Big hammers don't do the trick. I actually went out a bought a 20 lbs sledge hammer, all it did was make my shoulder hurt. I then got a 3lb ball peen and started using the ball end, what a difference that made.
Work it hot and use the ball to get it into a flat blade, then switch over to hammer that will flatten everything out and remove the dents.

Regards
Loyd Shindelbower
Loveland Colorado
 
I then got a 3lb ball peen and started using the ball end, what a difference that made.

Loyd - even better is a cross pein hammer - you can buy them or make them - this will give you some ideas. [url] http://www.fholder.com/Blacksmithing/article8.htm[/url]

A cross pein can be made by forging a big ball pein or small sledge to shape and re-heat treating - most hammers are 4140 or similar and are best tempered to around 40-45 RC (you DO NOT want a hammer to chip! it's like dodging shrapnel
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Gray Wolf said:
I then got a 3lb ball peen and started using the ball end, what a difference that made.

Loyd - even better is a cross pein hammer - you can buy them or make them - this will give you some ideas. [url] http://www.fholder.com/Blacksmithing/article8.htm[/url]

A cross pein can be made by forging a big ball pein or small sledge to shape and re-heat treating - most hammers are 4140 or similar and are best tempered to around 40-45 RC (you DO NOT want a hammer to chip! it's like dodging shrapnel

Thanks Grey Wolf. I tried the cross pien thing and I use it alot, however.... I have problems with Cold shuts on cross Piens. I have a 4 lbs'er that I ground down into a 1" radius. It works better than the pointy end the manufactuer supplies but its hard to keep from folding metal with it.

Regards
Loyd Shindelbower
Loveland Colorado
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Theres some good info here . I have looked at some hawks made from farriers rasps while they look neat just they dont quite seem right
 
Back
Top