First Shooting Session 62 Cal

[kawaker900]

I got to shoot the new 62 cal fusil on Sunday. It felt great and I think I got the right ball/load down. 10 shots in a 3 inch group at 25 yards. However I was 2 inches low and 2 inches to the right. This is my first smoothie and need some of your expert opinions. I don't want to hold 2 inches high and 2 to the left. Are there any tricks? Hold the gun different? I tried different charges with no change. Thanks for your help in advance!

 

[engravertom]

At least it is shooting low. If your front sight has some height to it, you could file it down lower. This will bring your shots up. Don't take too much at a time!

can you move the front sight at all to the right? This will move the rounds to the left on paper.

Or, you could consider some kind of notch in the tang, or tang screw. here, you want the notch to be to the left of center, to move the rounds to the left.

If the front sight can't be moved, and the rear notch is not an option, you could perhaps add some metal to the right side of the front sight, thus moving the "center" of the sight to the right. You could then file some metal off the left side of the front sight, to restore it to the original appearance.

perhaps the easiest way, if the front sight is tall and thin, would be to just bend it a bit to the right.

Hope this helps some!

Tom

 

[Shelby Skinner]

First thing I'd say is before you go filing and messing around with the gun is shoot it some more.

Where does it shoot at 50 yards?

Play with some different powder charges and different thickness patch material.

Once you are convinced you want to change where the gun points you now have some decisions to make. First, if there are no rear sights you do understand that your eyes are in effect acting as the rear sight and if you want the gun to move left or right you have to move your head (sights) left or right. This can be accomplished a few ways. The first is for you to see if you can mount the gun differently to change how your head meets the stock. Barring that you can either do a little rasping to your cheekpeice (to mover your head to the right--assuming you are rt handed) or have the stock bent one way or the other by a shotgun fitter who knows how to use heat lamps to bend a stock.

For elevation you have the option of using more or less of the ft. sight or filing it down some to raise the point of impact.

Lastly, you can bend the barrel (or have it bent by a blackpowder gunsmith) so that it points exactly where you want it to.

Lots of options but as I said, before you go changing things shoot it some more and at longer ranges. If its dead on at 50 yards do you really want to mess with it being 2" off at 25? (no deer would ever know the difference.)

 

[paulvallandigham]

Also check to see that the bore of the barrel is square to the muzzle. It would only take a little bit of filing on the right side of the muzzle to move those POI over to center. I would wait until I fired the gun more, and shot it at 50 yds. Once you have a good idea of where the balls group at 50 yds, have another good shooter shoot the gun. See where the balls go for him/her. If they are going to the same POI as they did for you, Now is the time to decided what to do to fix the problem. Again, filing the muzzle square is the easiest thing to do to deal with windage problems. File down the front site to raise the point of impact. 60 grains is only 2 1/4 drams. That is a modest load. I would recommend trying 2 3/4 drams, and then 3 drams( 75, and 83 grains respectively.) I would also try using an over powder wad between the powder and the PRB, and I highly suggest that you run a lubricated cleaning patch down the barrel after you seat the ball. This alone can rid you of some of the elevation, or windage problems.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Once you have a good idea of where the balls group at 50 yds, have another good shooter shoot the gun. See where the balls go for him/her. If they are going to the same POI as they did for you, now is the time to decided what to do to fix the problem.

Paul, I normally agree 100% with what you say, but I RARELY see the same firearm print to the same POI for 2 shooters. Each one will shoot a tight group, but you may be forgetting that we all are different and hold them differently.

Length of arms and fingers, width of chest, height of neck, facial differences, spacing of eyes, ... these all are factors and form a triangle between the master (shooting) eye, trigger finger, and forearm hold, that is not in common plane. Adjust any one of those factors and the group WILL move.

Then too some shoot with more cheek pressure than others, balance point, elbow high, even or low, and even how 'hard' they hold and/or squeeze ... just wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many factors in shooting to say 2 people will shoot to the same POI. At least that's what my 40 years of shootin' have shown me ...

Even when I was, errrr, shootin' centerfire benchrest, one could get the firearm to shoot at one POI using a free hold and squeezing the trigger between the finger and thumb - no hold at all. But once the shooter was brought into the equation (this now being the 'nut' behind the trigger :rotf: ) - the POI could and would move even though the 'same' sub-200 group was shot.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree with you. However, you have to remember that this shooter is shooting at 25 yards, while most of us are usually shooting rifles at 100 yards, and longer ranges. You can move a group somewhat at 25 yards, but not what he describes with two shooters, assuming that a good bench rest is being used.

Years ago, I was showing a retire police officer my slug barrel on my Remington 870, and we fired some slugs at a silhouette target off-hand at 50 yards. My first three shots were all touching, in the center of the "x". He then shot the last 2 shells out of the box of ammo, and his two shots landed only about 1/2 inch high, one at 10 o/clock, and the other at 2 o'clock. The entire 5 shots could be covered with the palm of a hand, and probably with a silver dollar. He was amazed. He had never fired a slug gun with a recoil pad on it, nor one where the stock actually fit him. Then, my gun was both ported, and I have relieved the throat, both of which change the recoil charactistics of 12 gauge slugs considerably. I doubt he had ever fired two consecutive shots with a riot gun where the slugs landed on target as close as those two at 50 yards, off-hand! Saturday, I shot my brother's .40 cal. underhammer gun, after he fired two shots that hit the 10 ring at 25 yards. My shot hit the 10X. He told me to hold over at 7 o'clock slightly below the center of the bullseye, and that is what I did. We were shooting off a rest, rather than off-hand as we were testing a couple of guns.

So, I still like the idea of asking another shooter to shoot the gun. If the barrel is truly bent, then all the shooters should be shooting to the same side, just more or less. At close ranges, this works well enough to tell you if its you, or the gun!

 

[roundball]

AND....bench rest shooting is not at all representative of POI when shooting off hand and/or with some sort of partial rest like sitting against a tree with an elbow braced down against the side/chest, or standing leaning against a tree, etc.

The entire recoil event, recoil arc is different and affects the POI...so if it's going to be used for hunting, any permanent modifications should be done while shooting it as it will be shot when hunting, not all hunkered down over it on a bench.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

True, yardage is more of the factor in this case and I shudda used my Schuetzen offhand years of experience in place of my BR experience :surrender: .

But that said, if I were this shooter, I myself would shoot it QUITE A LOT at 50 yards before attempting any permanent change to the sights or barrel configuration, once a suitable load was decided on, that is.

 

[tg]

If the barrel has a flare at the muzzle you can often move the sight back to lower it, mine sets 4" back on my fusil this puts it just right for elevation, do try some shots from a standing position with a rest . I have found that sitting with a smoothy on bags and then standing up changes the whole game, a wee bit of bend in the tube may be the final solutuion.try all other options first, powder loads, patch/ball combos.

 

[Leatherbark]

I would not mess with anything until you shoot it some more. The big .600 ball would probably be used for deer anyway right? Elevate the barrel slightly and learn the sight picture. 50 yards is about it for accuracy on deer with a smoothbore I believe so 2 inches off at 25 could be compensated on a deer size target...................Bob

 

[TANSTAAFL]

It would only take a little bit of filing on the right side of the muzzle to move those POI over to center.

LOL Paul. :grin: I have lost count as to how many times I have been told the muzzle on my fusil de chasse is not square, as it is filed off to one side just as you described.

I had read some of the English gun maker's would often do so to regulate shot and ball in a smoothbore. All I know is it worked for me, after I first filed it, guess I misunderstood the quest as to what I wanted, for that moved the ball even further off. I re-filed to the other side, and now it is point on at 50 yards. :v


Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H.L. Mencken

 

[paulvallandigham]

Tan: I first was " educated " about filing barrels at Friendship, years ago, when I was looking at a rack of old double guns, many of which showed clear evidence that the muzzles of each barrel had been filed. I finally asked the dealer about the work, and he was kind enough to educate me. The more he talked, the more it made sense. He was the man who told me that the easiest way to correct a barrel on a smoothbore that was throwing shot away from POA was to file the muzzle to move the pattern. Years later, I was talking to a experienced gunmaker about shotguns, and he told me that you could do the same thing to move the POI of a PRB. That also made sense.

Having said that, the first time you take a file to a muzzle, You are going to be NERVOUS! I did it with an old breechloader I inherited from my Grandfather. I had to shorten the barrels to get past a deep scratch that threated to rupture the barrel at the choke. When I finished cutting off the barrels, I trued them up with a draw file, and removed all burrs. Then I went to the range to see where the patterns would land. The right barrel was okay, but the left still isn't. I just have to take some clamps to clamp the barrel to the shooting bench while I file off a little more metal to move that pattern. But it makes me nervous for all the reasons You describe!

I would rather file the muzzle on a shotgun to move the pattern or POI than to try to bend the barrel. If you have the right equipment for bending pipes, that is one thing. But some of the techniques I have read here scare me to death! The trees around my home are safe, for example. :surrender:

 

[Frank/Pa]

Tan: I first was " educated " about filing barrels at Friendship, years ago, when I was looking at a rack of old double guns, many of which showed clear evidence that the muzzles of each barrel had been filed. I finally asked the dealer about the work, and he was kind enough to educate me. The more he talked, the more it made sense. He was the man who told me that the easiest way to correct a barrel on a smoothbore that was throwing shot away from POA was to file the muzzle to move the pattern. Years later, I was talking to a experienced gunmaker about shotguns, and he told me that you could do the same thing to move the POI of a PRB. That also made sense.
more metal to move that pattern. But it makes me nervous for all the reasons You describe!

Which side of the barrel do you file to move the POI left or right. Seems if you want to move the POI to the left, you would file the left side looking from the breech end?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Frank: If you think about it, its rather simple. If you want the move the group left( towards 9 o'clock) then file the right side, or the 3 o;clock position on the muzzle, to move the pattern Left. Filing the right side allows gas to push past the wad and shot as it is released from the muzzle, pushing the wad and shot LEFT. It does not take the removal of much metal from the muzzle of most shotguns, or smoothbores, to move a pattern. This should always be done at the range, at a patterning board. With a ML shotgun, I would pattern open cylinder guns at 25 yards. When I cut the distance of the center of the pattern half the distance from where it was shooting, to where I want it to shoot, I might try a pattern or 3 at say, 35 yards, or the longest distance I am likely to use that barrel to hit birds. See if the pattern needs to be moved further. I probably will.

This is a shoot, and file process, with the patterning board guiding you where to file, and when to stop!

Oh, I normally will shoot a shot load into a paper target at no more than 10 feet to find out where the shot is going, as oppose to my POA. I learned to do this with cheaper reloaded shot shells when zeroing in sights for shotgun slugs. I use the same practice with round ball load, and found that I got a very good idea of where the pattern of a shot load will also go by using this short range target for my first shots. If I can't hit a 2 inch circle at 10 feet with a load of shot- granted that the shot will be about the size of a quarter at that distance-- I need to try a different powder charge, or different wad and lube combination. Usually, raising the powder charge will also raise the POI. Lowering the powder charge will reduce the amount of windage, or wide dispersal of strikes you get.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[kawaker900]

I want to thank everyone for their replies! I have alot of shooting to do. I'll start out this week at 50 yards and see what happens. Paul your post on filing seems to be the best fix. If I need to do that I will be extremely NERVOUS! but if that is what I need to do then I have to do it.

Thanks again! :bow:

 

[akapennypincher]

I got to shoot the new 62 cal fusil on Sunday. It felt great and I think I got the right ball/load down. 10 shots in a 3 inch group at 25 yards. However I was 2 inches low and 2 inches to the right. This is my first smoothie and need some of your expert opinions. I don't want to hold 2 inches high and 2 to the left. Are there any tricks? Hold the gun different? I tried different charges with no change. Thanks for your help in advance!

Was this Offhand or Shooting Off a Bench or Block or some other Stabilizing DEVICE??????

 

[kawaker900]

I got to shoot the new 62 cal fusil on Sunday. It felt great and I think I got the right ball/load down. 10 shots in a 3 inch group at 25 yards. However I was 2 inches low and 2 inches to the right. This is my first smoothie and need some of your expert opinions. I don't want to hold 2 inches high and 2 to the left. Are there any tricks? Hold the gun different? I tried different charges with no change. Thanks for your help in advance!

Was this Offhand or Shooting Off a Bench or Block or some other Stabilizing DEVICE??????

Off a bench.

 

[cptleo1]

1. Shoot it a bunch more.

2. Sight it in from the same position you will be hunting with it.
a. For me I sight em in from a solid sitting position with a rest (shooting stick).

b. I do this cuz it is the normal way I will be hunting with it. (Treestand w/rest, ground blind w/rest).

3. Before I remove ANY metal for side to side adjustments, I take a damp wash cloth and drape it over the comb and shoot a few test groups - observe the effect. Try folding the wash cloth different ways (More or less layers)see what happens.

4. I have also noted that often if you move your head foward and back on the stock your left/right POI will change.

All this being said -

As long as you are on the paper - do your load development, play with your patches and lubes and get to know your new friend and enjoy the moment.

The very LAST thing to do is remove metal for that final tweek, take your time and enjoy the whole process.

Good Luck - Enjoy !!!!!!!!!

Shoot me a PM if I can be of any help.

Leo

 

[grsvbs]

Does the above conversation apply to RB too

 

[paulvallandigham]

Cardsplitter: The LAST thing you do is file on the muzzles. You asked how this was done, and I told you. I did not tell you to start doing this after the first shooting of the gun.

First you do load development. Get a good pattern, or, if you are going to shoot only RB, then test EACH barrel for the most accurate load. Sometimes using more or less powder will raise and lower the POI. As to windage problems, remember that the stock is your rear sight, as your cheek, fitting against the comb of the stock determines how the eye sees that front bead.

If I owned a guy that was shooting only a couple of inches to one side or another, I would consider two fixes:

1. Simply install a rear sight, or mark the tang with some kind of line that would bring the bead over enough to move the POI those few inches.

2. Consider having Cast Off put on the stock, by having the stock either bent, or if its a half stock, a little filing in the stock mortise at the back of the action( you file the wood, not the metal) to bend the stock would work. I did this with a Remington Model 870 shotgun to give me "Cast On" as I am left handed. The gun now mounts and shoots very well for me.

If a POI is high or low, I would consider filing down the comb to lower the POI, or adding wood to the comb to raise the POI. Shootes use " moleskin " or various kinds of cloth, incuding terry cloth used in towels and wash cloths, as someone else has suggested to raise the comb while testing. I have seen duct tape, cardboard, and all other manners of temporary additions to the comb to raise the POI on shotguns, until the correct height is achieved. Then, something more permanent is installed or a new stock is cut to the correct dimension. Again, I have seen extra wood added to the comb, by cutting a flat on the top of the stock, and epoxying a new piece of wood, which then is filed down to the correct dimension. This is such a common need for shotguns that some of the more expensive breech loading shotguns come with an adjustable comb. That kind of stock would be perfect for someone intent on shooting RB only.

Now, I have restricted these comments to shooting RB only because most shotgun barrels are NOT designed to shoot round balls: instead, they are designed to shoot shot loads. The barrel walls are thin, to lighten the weight of the gun, particularly in DB shotguns. Light barrels tend to have wildly different harmonics, and they tend to shoot away from each other, at least with shot loads. What a give set of barrels will do shooting Round Balls is anybody's guess.

The reason I now have a fowler is because the back half of the barrel is a strong octagon design, and the round front half is at least twice as thick as the barrels on my DB shotgun. Its far less tempermental shooting round balls than my DB shot gun, with its thinner, round barrels.

Now if you are going to shoot Shot loads out of that gun, too, then you need to decide what is going to be the gun's primary use, or function, and work up loads. If you have to move a pattern because its striking center a foot or more away from POA, then its much more important to work on that situation with changes to both the stock and barrel, than moving either for a 2 inch variance shooting round ball. You don't give the range, but if a shotgun is putting a RB within two inches of POA at 50 yds, You can't hold the sights on a live target tight enough to notice the difference. And remember, you are hitting that deer with a massive projectile, that weighs over an ounce, and will expand on impact to cause a massive primary wound channel.

For a 2 inch drop in POI, I would try first increasing the powder charge and add a good OP wad to my load to see if my POI would not raise. Then, and only then, if nothing happened, I would add material to the comb. Finally, if that just didn't do it, I would consider filing down that front bead some. It would not take much to move the POI 2 inches higher.

The last thing I would do is file on the muzzle. I would however, begin all this by checking the muzzles to see that they were cut square to the Bores of the two barrels. I would want to know that the crowns are correct, before filing any on the stock or the muzzle, or the sights.