Fixing up an old 10 Gauge SxS

[10 Ga.]

Hello everyone,

I am looking for some advice on repairing an old side by side with a couple problems, but first my experience level. I have worked on several modern firearms and enjoy building and repairing modern firearms. I would not consider myself an expert by any means but I do enjoy tinkering. This is my first foray into major muzzle loader repair especially with a Damascus barrel. I might not be up to date on muzzle loader parts terminology but I am happy to learn as much as I can!

Now to the problems with the SxS. The two main problems are a dented barrel, and some issues with the left lockwork.

The Barrel Dent:
This barrel was dented when I purchased the shotgun it seems as if it might have been dented in a car door or something of that nature. The dent does protrude into the barrel. When looking at the dent with a borescope and a pick the pick slides over the dent and I cannot find a crack. From the outside there seems to be some type of line dent or crack. Even though the shotgun still looks grimy I have cleaned odd a lot of the grime that came with the shotgun. The barrels ring true like a bell when removed from the stock and lightly tapped with a brass hammer so I believe the barrels are still attached properly together.

My question is:
Is it possible to raise a dent safely in a Damascus barrel like it is with a fluid steel barrel?
I plan to use this SxS as a shooter so I want to know if a raised dent will be safe.

The Lock Issue:
The left lock half **** sits just 1/8" off of the hammer. The force needed to **** the hammer is substantial and is higher than the right lock. When I pulled the lock off of both sides I found what looks like an antique "fix" of the spring. the replacement spring is thicker and has a different geometry than the other lock. I believe this excess pressure has damaged the sear engagement and the screws and lockwork in the lock. As you can see the trigger bar/sear is cracked off and what I will call the housing has pulled away from the lock side.

My lock questions:
What is involved with fixing the lock issues.
Can a spring be acquired? I have experience making springs but I no longer have access to a tempering oven etc.
Can lock parts be acquired to fix the broken pieces? If possible I would like to keep the original lock (or side plate)

Any help will be greatly appreciated. I realize this will be a lot of work but I enjoy a good project.

Sincerely,
10 Ga.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I used to work for a small job shop that made small hydraulic cylinders of air craft and we "sized" the tubing that we used by forcing a heavily lubed lubed slug through the tubes. I believe you could do the same with your barrel. It should not be done in one pass but several using slugs starting with one .001 over what will pass the dent with out binding. Then going up .002 at a time until you reach a size that just clears the rest of the barrel. The slug would have to driven with a rod so attached with a "slide hammer" to allow you to remove the slug if the breech plug is not pulled.Also the barrel would have to be checked for any cracks after removing the dent.

 

[Phil Coffins]

The main spring has the bend too close together, when cocked the two half’s come together causing the heavy compression. Also note the file marks run across the spring and that will promote a break. You have a nice project in repairing the lock but I wouldn’t shoot that barrel regardless if the dent was lifted.
That housing is called the bridle.

 

[10 Ga.]

Thank you for the reply Ohio ramrod!
I have used a similar method before on fluid steel barrels in modern shotguns. The issue I have is not being able to pass the slugs through the breach. I’m not sure how easy it will be to remove these antique breach plugs. I have not heard of the “slide hammer” you mentioned. Could you explain how it works to remove the plugs once passed through the dent? Also does anyone know if there are differences in removing dents between standard steel and Damascus steel barrels? Is there anything special I should look out for specific to Damascus?

Thanks for the help,

10Ga.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Never done this but once completed especially on a damascus barrel magnaflux check would be in my opinion a good start to look for seperations in the steel.

 

[10 Ga.]

Thanks for the reply Phil coffins,

The dent does occur within 3” of the muzzle. It would be possible to cut and recrown the muzzle. I just would hate to do that to an older piece. If one barrel is not shootable though it is a lot of extra dead weight to carry on a hunt. I thought the same about the main spring. The geometry and spring thickness is off which caused damage to the lock work before I got it. I also forgot that I can temper springs using a lead pot (thanks to the forum for reminding me) so I will probably be able to manufacture a spring “in house”.

-10 Ga.

 

[2 shots]

hydraulic dent raiser , made for that work.

 

[hawkeye2]

Any decent smith has a shotgun barrel dent remover and it isn't an expensive job. As far as removing the dent from a damascus barrel goes remove the dent and inspect the barrel very carefully after. I had a dent removed from the damascus barrel of one of my Parkers with no issues.

 

[ZUG]

I would also recommend that you have a gunsmith with a dent remover do the work. This would insure that it was done properly with the least possibility of damage to the rib and the barrel. As the dent is about 3" from the muzzle there is a VERY small chance of a barrel rupture from gas pressure if a very small crack was detected after the dent removal which MAYBE incurred which is why I recommend the work be done by a professional. All this said it is dependent on how bad the dent is.

 

[SOLANCO]

Beg, borrow, but do not steal a fairly recent issue of the now discontinued Double Gun Journal. The handful of smiths who advertised there should be able to put you right. Turnbull Restoration Company comes to mind as one of them.

 

[Tomski]

Hello everyone,

I am looking for some advice on repairing an old side by side with a couple problems, but first my experience level. I have worked on several modern firearms and enjoy building and repairing modern firearms. I would not consider myself an expert by any means but I do enjoy tinkering. This is my first foray into major muzzle loader repair especially with a Damascus barrel. I might not be up to date on muzzle loader parts terminology but I am happy to learn as much as I can!

Now to the problems with the SxS. The two main problems are a dented barrel, and some issues with the left lockwork.

The Barrel Dent:
This barrel was dented when I purchased the shotgun it seems as if it might have been dented in a car door or something of that nature. The dent does protrude into the barrel. When looking at the dent with a borescope and a pick the pick slides over the dent and I cannot find a crack. From the outside there seems to be some type of line dent or crack. Even though the shotgun still looks grimy I have cleaned odd a lot of the grime that came with the shotgun. The barrels ring true like a bell when removed from the stock and lightly tapped with a brass hammer so I believe the barrels are still attached properly together.
View attachment 163557
My question is:
Is it possible to raise a dent safely in a Damascus barrel like it is with a fluid steel barrel?
I plan to use this SxS as a shooter so I want to know if a raised dent will be safe.

The Lock Issue:
The left lock half **** sits just 1/8" off of the hammer. The force needed to **** the hammer is substantial and is higher than the right lock. When I pulled the lock off of both sides I found what looks like an antique "fix" of the spring. the replacement spring is thicker and has a different geometry than the other lock. I believe this excess pressure has damaged the sear engagement and the screws and lockwork in the lock. As you can see the trigger bar/sear is cracked off and what I will call the housing has pulled away from the lock side.

View attachment 163558
View attachment 163559
View attachment 163560
My lock questions:
What is involved with fixing the lock issues.
Can a spring be acquired? I have experience making springs but I no longer have access to a tempering oven etc.
Can lock parts be acquired to fix the broken pieces? If possible I would like to keep the original lock (or side plate)

Any help will be greatly appreciated. I realize this will be a lot of work but I enjoy a good project.

Sincerely,
10 Ga.

There's a guy on YouTube that made a video on how to remove a dent from a barrel. The only concern is those may be twisted steel barrels and that might cause a problem

 

[rich pierce]

Regarding the hammer being too close to the nipple: this is often the result of wear on the nose of the sear. A loss of very little is magnified by the large radius of the hammer throw.

To fix this I trace the sear outline carefully then anneal it and cut the tip off. I saw a slot into the cut-off nose area. Then I craft a piece of spring stock to extend the nose. It has a T shape with the stem inserted right into the slot I just sawed. I flux and braze it and then shape it so the nose is longer by maybe 0.050”.

I harden the whole brazed sear because it will harden at a temp below the brazing temp. Then temper to dark purple.

Then try and adjust the nose as needed using diamond files or stones. 0.050” at the sear nose could yield .250” at the nipple.

Crude drawing below.

 

[10 Ga.]

Regarding the hammer being too close to the nipple: this is often the result of wear on the nose of the sear. A loss of very little is magnified by the large radius of the hammer throw.

To fix this I trace the sear outline carefully then anneal it and cut the tip off. I saw a slot into the cut-off nose area. Then I craft a piece of spring stock to extend the nose. It has a T shape with the stem inserted right into the slot I just sawed. I flux and braze it and then shape it so the nose is longer by maybe 0.050”.

I harden the whole brazed sear because it will harden at a temp below the brazing temp. Then temper to dark purple.

Then try and adjust the nose as needed using diamond files or stones. 0.050” at the sear nose could yield .250” at the nipple.

Crude drawing below.View attachment 173914

Thanks for everyone’s replies! There is definitely some chipping damage to the sear nose that I believe is caused by the main spring being much stronger than the original. I was at a loss for how to fix this without complex welding to build up material. Thank you for bringing up more options as I do not have access to a welder at this point.

-10Ga

 

[user 34300]

I used to work for a small job shop that made small hydraulic cylinders of air craft and we "sized" the tubing that we used by forcing a heavily lubed lubed slug through the tubes. I believe you could do the same with your barrel. It should not be done in one pass but several using slugs starting with one .001 over what will pass the dent with out binding. Then going up .002 at a time until you reach a size that just clears the rest of the barrel. The slug would have to driven with a rod so attached with a "slide hammer" to allow you to remove the slug if the breech plug is not pulled.Also the barrel would have to be checked for any cracks after removing the dent.

Please do not do this. The ribs will come off, the barrels will separate, you will have junk. This is not how it is done.

Raising a dent on a shotgun barrel is kindergarten stuff for a real gunsmith. Yes, a hydraulic dent raiser is a tool. It is also real easy to make a bubble with one.

The easiest thing is to have someone who knows how do it for you.

For reference, I usually turn some polished steel mandrills that fit the bore closely. The mandrills have a gradual taper and a parallel section. Each mandrill is a little larger. The mandrill is pushed under the dent. The dent is then TAPPED from the outside with a polished hammer. The mandrill will become loose. Us the next larger mandrill, repeat. When the mandrill that is a push fit slides past you are done. These barrels are extremely soft. It is a finesse job.

 

[hawkeye2]

"Raising a dent on a shotgun barrel is kindergarten stuff for a real gunsmith.
The easiest thing is to have someone who knows how do it for you."

Per Scota@4570, also see my post #8. An easy and inexpensive as well as common repair. Ask one of the local skeet/trap shooters for a reputable smith nearby. He might be able to help you with the lock too if he's an experienced shotgun repair person.

 

[10 Ga.]

Hello again everyone. It has been awhile since my last post but as you all know life can get busy. I am posting today to update everyone on my progress over the last few moths with this 10 gauge side by side.

First I took the barrel to a local gunsmith. They primarily worked on modern cartridge guns but were willing to look it over. They said that as long as I didn't find a major crack in the dent post cleaning, the weapon should be good to fire because the dent does not go very far into the barrel. From that I then started the barrel polishing process.

Second I worked to polish the barrels. To polish the barrels I used a long oak dowel rod with a slot cut into the end. to start strips of green scotch bright were put into the slot and a drill was used to spin the rod and abrasive through the barrel with a muzzle protector attached. This was done repeatedly until most of the visible rust was removed. Then differing gauges of steel wool were wound around the rod and the same process was completed. These steel wool steps were conducted from most coarse to most fine ending with 0000 steel wool. The final step utilized a 10Ga cleaning jag and a mass of 0000 steel wool to move the steel wool longitudinally through the barrel. This step was done approximately 1000 passes per barrel to prevent any radial scratches from the spinning abrasive steps. After these steps were completed the barrels were polished to the state in the pictures below. There are still small pits in the barrel in some locations but they are now clean and the majority of the barrel is polished and very shiny. (Its hard to get good pictures and I don't have a lighted nock)

Thirdly I started work on the sear. I found that the previous owner had modified the sear to be barely functional while also damaging the lock. I assume the original sear broke then the previous owner mad it work the best they could. The previous "fix" lead to it not being possible to add now sear material and braze it on like previously suggested. Due to these issues I decided to create a new sear using the right compete sear as a pattern (mirrored obviously) and a piece of 1095 steel (after getting help from another thread). So far I have roughed out a sear shape and twisted it into 3D shape. I will continue to shape the sear and then quench and temper to a final part in the future.

A proper size hole is drilled into the stock and a pin is used to properly locate the sear pattern. Then the pattern is outlined using a sewing needle.

Then the pattern was cut out with a hacksaw and filed to rough dimensions. The sear was then heated and twisted to the rough 3D shape and the whole piece was annealed by bringing it up to temperature and allowing it to cool slowly to prevent any work hardening etc. Special care was taken not to over heat thin areas like the sear engagement or the drilled hole. The sear is now easy to file due to the annealing and is ready to be brought to final shape.

As always feel free to let me know your ideas or how this can be improved. I know it's probably not what some of you would have done but this was the best course of action I could find.

- 10Ga