Fliers Or Perhaps Flyers

[Dr5x]

There was Lindbergh, Amelia Earhart and that damn last ball I loaded that 4 inches outside the main sort of group.. Most riflemen accept these wild fliers as an unexplainable whimsey of perverse nature. I believe the 14th or 15th Century the Church claimed flyers were caused by the ball being deflected when it hit an evil spirit on its way to the target.

Yf you fired five shots at your point of aim. Two hit where you wanted and the others were off center. The 4 inches from its brother is definitely a flyer. . Anybody can see that. If all these shots were fired bench rest without that flinch you've been trying eliminate we can now look at those other two shots which are also fliers. Lets call them. in a manly way. "itty bitty fliers"
The ball 4 inches away is probably caused by a great imbalance of the spinning ball which caused to fly off course.
Those two other were just a little bit off balance and thus had an "itty bitty" out of balance so the ball was only slightly off balance and therefore slightly askew.
I am impressed at how many riflemen claim they must have twitched . This is nobel of them but
FLIERS BIG AND VERY SMALL ARE CAUSED. THERE IS NO WHIMSEY OF NATURE. No angel farts caused in punishment for what you did in the bar last Saturday is involved. They were allCAUSED and you have to get rid of that or those causes.
And when you are done doing that you can say "Hey look everybody. a one hole group".
The only other way to get a one hole target group is to fire four rounds at othepeople's targets and just once at your own.
Dutch Schoultz

 

[Dr5x]

There was Lindbergh, Amelia Earhart and that damn last ball I loaded that 4 inches outside the main sort of group.. Most riflemen accept these wild fliers as an unexplainable whimsey of perverse nature. I believe the 14th or 15th Century the Church claimed flyers were caused by the ball being deflected when it hit an evil spirit on its way to the target.

Yf you fired five shots at your point of aim. Two hit where you wanted and the others were off center. The 4 inches from its brother is definitely a flyer. . Anybody can see that. If all these shots were fired bench rest without that flinch you've been trying eliminate we can now look at those other two shots which are also fliers. Lets call them. in a manly way. "itty bitty fliers"
The ball 4 inches away is probably caused by a great imbalance of the spinning ball which caused to fly off course.
Those two other were just a little bit off balance and thus had an "itty bitty" out of balance so the ball was only slightly off balance and therefore slightly askew.
I am impressed at how many riflemen claim they must have twitched . This is nobel of them but
FLIERS BIG AND VERY SMALL ARE CAUSED. THERE IS NO WHIMSEY OF NATURE. No angel farts caused in punishment for what you did in the bar last Saturday is involved. They were allCAUSED and you have to get rid of that or those causes.
And when you are done doing that you can say "Hey look everybody. a one hole group".
The only other way to get a one hole target group is to fire four rounds at othepeople's targets and just once at your own.
Dutch Schoultz

I wrote this short piece on flyers or Fliers and got not one single comment.
Why the silence?
Does no one get them any more?
I didn't have one the last several years I was able to shoot.

I contend, which means nagging endlessly that fliers ARE CAUSED by y the shooter. If caused by a twitch or a jerk of the rifleman, I agree those do exist. Don't do that and they won't show up on target.

The fliers I speak of are the ones that "just happen".

The big ones are caused by big imbalances in the spinning round ball. the littler one are caused by smaller, even tiny, Imbalances in the round ball. If you weigh out and eliminate all but the most solid balls having NO air bubbles or light weight inclusions. and the rifle is held still you will have no fliers. Why would you? What would cause it?

 

[Rodd Boyer]

Dutch, I'm with you on this..... although my eyes have gotten bad enough that I REALLY have to work at getting things lined up the same every time. Oh, to have young eyes again! I have your shooting system and weigh out balls and cull the light ones just to make sure it's me messing up the shot sequence, not the rifle.

With shooting my flinters, any type of delay in ignition can cause a flyer if I don't do my part and follow through!

 

[Griz44Mag]

I wrote this short piece on flyers or Fliers and got not one single comment.

The fliers I speak of are the ones that "just happen".

The big ones are caused by big imbalances in the spinning round ball. the littler one are caused by smaller, even tiny, Imbalances in the round ball. If you weigh out and eliminate all but the most solid balls having NO air bubbles or light weight inclusions. and the rifle is held still you will have no fliers. Why would you? What would cause it?

We are human - well most of us are.
As such, we are not perfect - we can eliminate all variables, powder, ball, patch, lube, etc....
What we cannot, and will never be able to do, is eliminate the human variable without going to a machine rest and not touching the gun.
But then, if we were perfect, there would be no need for practice, no reason to have matches, no reason to even load the gun.
No fun in that!
One of the reasons I have declined my interest in suppository guns was with most variables eliminated by modern technology also eliminated the fun factor.
I'll take a few flyers, and make good smoke....

 

[Dr5x]

Dutch, I'm with you on this..... although my eyes have gotten bad enough that I REALLY have to work at getting things lined up the same every time. Oh, to have young eyes again! I have your shooting system and weigh out balls and cull the light ones just to make sure it's me messing up the shot sequence, not the rifle.

With shooting my flinters, any type of delay in ignition can cause a flyer if I don't do my part and follow through!

LOOKING AT YOUR WEE ATAV? THROUGH my OLD EYES I CAN'T TELL IF THE PERSON THERE IS DRESSED LIKE BABE RUTH OR A SAMURAI.
DUTCH

 

[longcruise]

.....If you weigh out and eliminate all but the most solid balls having NO air bubbles or light weight inclusions. and the rifle is held still you will have no fliers. Why would you? What would cause it?

A patch material that is on the edge of survivability? On occasion it fails but for the most part doesn't?

I think any experienced shooter can call their flyers without looking at the target. Last year I had a good target developing at the 50 yard line. My fifth shot went way high and right. I didn't call it, it felt like a good shot. The balls were not weighed and I think you are right on Dutch. It was one of my own cast balls and probably was out of balance. While it could have been the patching it's unlikely since the rifles load combo is well tested. But patch can't be excluded for certain since it was a line match that had been going on for several days. Finding any one certain patch was futile.

 

[Dr5x]

We are human - well most of us are.
As such, we are not perfect - we can eliminate all variables, powder, ball, patch, lube, etc....
What we cannot, and will never be able to do, is eliminate the human variable without going to a machine rest and not touching the gun.
But then, if we were perfect, there would be no need for practice, no reason to have matches, no reason to even load the gun.
No fun in that!
One of the reasons I have declined my interest in suppository guns was with most variables eliminated by modern technology also eliminated the fun factor.
I'll take a few flyers, and make good smoke....

BILLIAM.
THE WEE PICTURE BY YOUR POSTS LOOKS LIKE A FEDORA WEARING GANGSTER FROM A '30'S CAGNEY MOVIE.
I WOULD LIKE A BETTER PICTURE FOR MY not ROUGES GALLERY OF GOOD PEOPLE.
I AM JUST ABOUT TO ADD THE PHOTO OF ARABBI
WHO HAS RECENTLY JOINED MY COLLECTION OF REALLY GOOD PEOPLE
DUTCH

 

[longcruise]

Hah! That's why I don't have a picture of me. Don't want to be in anyone's rogues gallery nor do I want to be recognized in public.

 

[Marinekayak]

Dutch on the right track. The mechanical accuracy of most of the modern made muzzleloaders we shoot are probably more than capable of shooting one hole groups at reasonable range. What we need to do is strive for consistency from shot to shot and make sure we are repeating everything the same from shot to shot. The problem I see as a neophyte muzzleloader shooter is that there are a lot more variables to control with a muzzleloader than with an unmentionable cartridge firearm. We have to control:
1. The projectile. Weigh it and eliminate anything too light or too heavy?
2. The patch. Use the same patch material from the same piece of cloth from shot to shot?
3. Patch lube. Use exact same amount in the exact same way on each patch?
4. Powder. measured by volume. Measure the first load and weigh it then make sure each measure by volume weighs the same? I admit I am not sure on this one.
5 Loading and seating the projectile. Load each one the exact same with the same pressure? I think I read somewhere that ML target shooters place the but of the rifle on a bathroom scale for consistency.
6. The bore cleaned or fouled the same between shots? not sure but I am guessing the bore needs to be the same.
7 You as the shooter doing your part.

I am sure I am missing something but we are striving for repeatability on each shot making the first shot the same as the next shot. When shooting a group its also a mental game, your not shooting a 5 shot group your shooing a one shot group 5 times all at the same place.

 

[Dr5x]

Dutch on the right track. The mechanical accuracy of most of the modern made muzzleloaders we shoot are probably more than capable of shooting one hole groups at reasonable range. What we need to do is strive for consistency from shot to shot and make sure we are repeating everything the same from shot to shot. The problem I see as a neophyte muzzleloader shooter is that there are a lot more variables to control with a muzzleloader than with an unmentionable cartridge firearm. We have to control:
1. The projectile. Weigh it and eliminate anything too light or too heavy?
2. The patch. Use the same patch material from the same piece of cloth from shot to shot?
3. Patch lube. Use exact same amount in the exact same way on each patch?
4. Powder. measured by volume. Measure the first load and weigh it then make sure each measure by volume weighs the same? I admit I am not sure on this one.
5 Loading and seating the projectile. Load each one the exact same with the same pressure? I think I read somewhere that ML target shooters place the but of the rifle on a bathroom scale for consistency.
6. The bore cleaned or fouled the same between shots? not sure but I am guessing the bore needs to be the same.
7 You as the shooter doing your part.

I am sure I am missing something but we are striving for repeatability on each shot making the first shot the same as the next shot. When shooting a group its also a mental game, your not shooting a 5 shot group your shooing a one shot group 5 times all at the same place.

ACTUALLY YOUR FIRST SHOT indifferent because its in a clean barrel.
It will usually land outside the group of the following 4 shots.
To avoid this odd problem I would begin each day with 30 or 40 grains of whatever dropped down the barrel and with no projectile. fire this load down range, Then the quick wipe in and out and begin your day.

Dutch

 

[Marinekayak]

That works on the range. If hunting with fixed sights I guess know the off set between a cold bore and follow up shots.

 

[Dr5x]

Hah! That's why I don't have a picture of me. Don't want to be in anyone's rogues gallery nor do I want to be recognized in public.

i do like your Cheshire Cat cartoon

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

That works on the range. If hunting with fixed sights I guess know the off set between a cold bore and follow up shots.

Bizmark I believe said something similar about staff officers.Smart Lazy ones are the best.
Stupid lazy ones you can easily direct.
Smart active ones will make great generals.
Active stupid ones you can do nothing with.

I came up with Heraclitus idea independently as did a sea friend we called it the 90/10 theory.
In any large group 10% will be winners and 90% should be followers

 

[dave951]

With muzzleloaders, shooting technique is critical. I've been guilty of having a great group going and rushing the last shot resulting in a "flyer" about an inch outside the rest. Let's face it, our guns are very unforgiving in that respect and yes, most of them are capable of better accuracy than you are.

 

[Dr5x]

With muzzleloaders, shooting technique is critical. I've been guilty of having a great group going and rushing the last shot resulting in a "flyer" about an inch outside the rest. Let's face it, our guns are very unforgiving in that respect and yes, most of them are capable of better accuracy than you are.

THE FLIERS I SPEAK OF ARE NOT THE ONCE RESULTING FROM A JERK OF THE RIFLEMAN OR OF A JERK WHO IS THE RIFLEMAN.
THESE ARE THE FLIERS LARGE OR SMALL RESULTING FROM A BENCH REST RIFLE HELD STEADY AS A ROCK.. ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR INTO A SINGLE HOLE IN THE PAPER AND NUMBER 5 HELD JUST AS STEADY, JUST AS ROCK SOLID SENDS A BALL PERCEPTIBLE OUTSIDE THE GROUP OF THE FIRST FOUR.
THERE HS TO BE A CAUSE.
FOR AT LEAST TWO YEARS I HAD NO FLIERS. A COMBINATION OF VERY EQUAL LUBRICATION AND SOLID LEAD BALLS.
SOUNDS LIKE BRAGGING BUT IT WAS JUST SUMPLE LOGIC. EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS WHEN THE POWDER EXPLODES IS SUBJECT TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. IF YOU CHANGE ANY ONE OF THE LOADING PROCESS IT WILL SHOW UP ON TARGET
I'M NOT A WIZARD LIKE MARKSMAN I JUST KNOW WHAT AFFECTS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE POWDER EXPLOGES.
DUTCH

 

[Marinekayak]

Dutch,
Lets analyze the fliers a little. Where is the flier going when you're shooting? Is there a consistency to where its going? And how far from the group is it? If the flier keeps going to the same spot every time then what ever is that's causing the flier is consistent too.

 

[Dr5x]

Dutch,
Lets analyze the fliers a little. Where is the flier going when you're shooting? Is there a consistency to where its going? And how far from the group is it? If the flier keeps going to the same spot every time then what ever is that's causing the flier is consistent too.

IF THE THE FLIER ALWAYS WENT TO THE SAME SPOT I WOULD ASSUME THAT THE CASUSATIVE IMBALANCE WAS CAUSED BY THE SAME AMOUNT OF AIR BUBBLE OR AMOUNT OF LIGHT WEIGHT INCLUSION AND THEIR LOCATION IN THE LEAD BALL WERE IN EXACTLY THE SAME ARRANGEMENT SHOT AFTER SHOT AND BALL AFTER BALL.
I AM INCLINED TO DOUBT THAT POSSABILITY WITHOUT FURTHER CONSIDERATION.
DUTCH - THANK YOU FOR A THOUGHT PROVOKING IDEA.

 

[longcruise]

Fliers are a sore spot with me. Can't begin to count the number of internet groups I've seen reduced from six inch groups to 1.5" groups by discounting "fliers".

 

[Marinekayak]

It could be something simple like tensing your shoulder on the stock without realizing it, a little too much trigger finger on the trigger, if your shooting from a rest your non shooting hand being in a slightly different place. A lot of time the shot feels good, you called it good, but you made one slight change your not even aware of. Taking a little longer to break the shot than usual, holding your respiratory pause longer than usual. If your really locked in solid with a tight group even shooting on your heartbeat instead of between heartbeats can effect some shooters and shots. I mean, that's in addition to all the millions of other things you have to think about with a ML firearm. If you can have someone watch you shoot they may see something you're not aware of.

 

[Dr5x]

Fliers are a sore spot with me. Can't begin to count the number of internet groups I've seen reduced from six inch groups to 1.5" groups by discounting "fliers".

I HATE FLIERS BIG TIME AND WHEN I NOTED THATONE MAJOR SOURCE OF SWAGED LEAD BALLS WILL SELL YOU AN EXPENSIVE BOX OF VERY PRETTY SWAGED LEAD BALLS THAT WEIGH OUT ALL OVER THE PLACE I THINK I HAVE LOCATED A CAUSE. WEIGHING THEM OUT AND SETTING ASIDE THE OFF WEIGHT BALLS REALLY SHRANK THE NUMBER OF FLIERS AND THE WASTE IN COST AND POWDER THEY REPRESENT.
BALLS YOU CAST YOUR SELF MAY RUN AS 5 OUT A HUNDRED OFF WEIGHT WHERE THE EXPENSIVE SWAGED BALLS CAN RUN AS MUCH AS 22 TO 25 OUT OF A HUNDRED AS OFF WEIGHT AND POTENTIAL FLIERS.
A NUMBER OF MY CORRESPONDENTS HAVE WRITTEN ME THAT THEY WERE ASTONISHED HOW BAD SOME OF EXPENSIVE BALLS WERE.