Flintlock Caliber Confusion

[user 27715]

I recently purchased my first muzzleloading firearm; a flintlock pistol. More specifically a replica 1716/77 British Sea Service Pistol, I just received it in the mail and frankly I'm more than just a little confused.. When I ordered it the website said it was .62 caliber and needed .595-.600 balls; so I purchased .595 balls and .62 cal supplies from a muzzleloading retailer that I know real well.

I opened the package today and the receipt has a section written in pen that says: bore- .60, suggested ball- .54-.58, suggested charge- 25-35 FFg. I sat here and panicked for a while and thought it might have been false advertising. But I just checked and my .62 cal tools all fit the bore perfect. My caliper reads .605".

So what would be the best and safest course of action from here on out? It might also be nice to know the thermal coefficient of expansion for lead which I don't have off the top of my head. I went to school for machine tool so feel free to get as technical as needed in your help.

Thank you,
Greg

 

When I ordered it the website said it was .62 caliber and needed .595-.600 balls; so I purchased .595 balls and .62 cal supplies from a muzzleloading retailer that I know real well.

I opened the package today and the receipt has a section written in pen that says: bore- .60, suggested ball- .54-.58, suggested charge- 25-35 FFg.

Never order balls for as gun until you know what you have.

It might also be nice to know the thermal coefficient of expansion for lead ...

Seriously? "thermal coefficient of expansion"? Daniel and Davy are rolling over in their graves. :grin:

 

[swathdiver]

It might also be nice to know the thermal coefficient of expansion for lead ...

Seriously? "thermal coefficient of expansion"? Daniel and Davy are rolling over in their graves. :grin:

:rotf:

We're just funnin' ya man! Just go shoot it.

 

[Zonie]

The coefficient of thermal expansion for pure lead is 16.3 X 10^-6 or 16.3 millionths of an inch per degree F per inch.

While your pondering that, I'll sit here and wonder why you wanted to know it.

Oh well, getting back to your pistol and its load, your .595 diameter balls should work nicely with a thin, .010 thick cotton patch in your .605 diameter barrel.

Don't use thick patches in a pistol. Especially a smooth bore.

The patch I mentioned and the .595 diameter ball will be a slight interference because the cloth will compress when it's loaded. You will probably need to use a short starter, a wooden ball or a non metallic mallet to get it started but once it is in the bore it should be pretty easy to push down to rest on the powder load.

Just to be on the safe side I think I agree with the suggested 25-35 grain powder load.
These guns are made in India and some of us question using large powder loads in guns made from unknown materials.

Hopefully, you have access to real black powder?
The synthetic black powders like Pyrodex, 777 and Shockly's Gold work poorly or not at all in a flintlock.

 

[user 27715]

Yes I will be buying Goex FFg powder; I was planning on a 60 grain charge but I suppose I can work up to that and maybe use a smaller ball for that? The responses definitely put my mind at ease; thank you. I wanted to know the thermal coefficient just to see if the lead ball would expand at a drastic rate and get stuck in the barrel.. I guess I'm not entirely sure why a .540-.580 ball is recommended when a .595 ball fits more snug. I would venture a guess that the more snug fit would lead to better accuracy? Are the smaller sizes just meant for easier loading?

Also while I'm at it; I've read in many books to seat the ball firmly on the powder. But the how-to article on the forum (which I believe is the same one Chuck Hawks has) says to only seat the ball until it touches the powder. Are both of these methods correct? Which one is the safer method? I would much rather learn and practice correctly than incorrectly.

 

[bpd303]

Hi and welcome to the addiction.
I have a brace of Sea Service pistols. Mine like 25gr ffg Goex with a bare .600 ball and wads over powder & ball. They are a lot of fun to shoot and fairly accurate at handgun ranges (20-30 yards).

 

[Zonie]

IMO, the heat needed to cause an expansion of the lead to a measurable degree would be hot enough to melt the lead. (It melts at a bit over 700 degrees F). The milliseconds of time the lead ball would be exposed to the powder flash (if it was loaded unpatched) is too fast to heat up the ball to any degree. (Any degree. Get it? Har har har.)

The ball size they recommended is WAY undersize.
With over 1/16 of an inch clearance it would require at least a 1/32" thick patch to just keep the ball from rolling out of the barrel.

In a smooth bore like your pistol the patch is there primarily to hold the ball in position on the powder load. It also does add to the accuracy of the load. After all, when a loose ball is rattling down the bore, who knows where it will really go?

As for the firmness of the ball on the powder, it doesn't make a lot of difference.
Most flintlock shooters don't like a heavy, crushed force applied to the ball.
They feel leaving some space between the grains of powder gives the flash from the pan an easier access to more of the surface area of the powder grains.

If you were a target shooter, looking for that extra 1/4 inch in your group size the most important thing is consistency of the load. That includes the amount of compression applied to the patched ball on the powder load.

The most important thing to remember is there should never be an air space between the powder and the ball.

If there is a large space between the powder and the ball it creates a situation that is basically an obstructed bore and that can cause the barrel to explode.

 

[Coot]

60 grains is a massive load for a pistol. I use 25 in my .50 with a 12" barrel & an accidental double charge (50 grains) sure got my attention. As others have mentioned, something in the 25 to 30 grain range would be a good starting point. The military smoothbore is not intended as a fine target gun & a few grains up or down should not make too much difference. For what its worth, your pistol was intended to be loaded with an un-patched ball using a paper cartridge just like a Brown Bess. A patched ball will give more accuracy but will be slower to load than the paper cartridge. No reason not to try both methods & see which you prefer.

 

[mjulihn]

Agree. 60 grains is a good target load for most BP rifles. I would think 40 grains is the top end for a pistol, with 25-35 grains being best.

 

[No Deer]

Yes I will be buying Goex FFg powder; I was planning on a 60 grain charge but I suppose I can work up to that and maybe use a smaller ball for that? The responses definitely put my mind at ease; thank you. I wanted to know the thermal coefficient just to see if the lead ball would expand at a drastic rate and get stuck in the barrel.. I guess I'm not entirely sure why a .540-.580 ball is recommended when a .595 ball fits more snug. I would venture a guess that the more snug fit would lead to better accuracy? Are the smaller sizes just meant for easier loading?

Also while I'm at it; I've read in many books to seat the ball firmly on the powder. But the how-to article on the forum (which I believe is the same one Chuck Hawks has) says to only seat the ball until it touches the powder. Are both of these methods correct? Which one is the safer method? I would much rather learn and practice correctly than incorrectly.

I have a .62 barrel on mine. Take my word on it, a 60 grain load will really twist your wrist. I have not tried it with a round ball (I use 25 grains 3f for that), but have loaded it with 60 grains 3f :shocked2: with shot and attempted to trap shoot with it. Out of 5 or 6 of us, a couple of guys actually managed to get lucky and bust a clay. Was a hoot to shoot trap with a pistol though :rotf: All who tried it agreed, it was a very stout load that you would not want to shoot all day long.

 

[F.G. Ford]

The coefficient of thermal expansion for pure lead is 16.3 X 10^-6 or 16.3 millionths of an inch per degree F per inch.

DANG! Zonie,
You surprise me more, each time you reveal your knowledge! ( compliment)


Seriously, if I got a ball that fit down the barrel, I would patch it up until it worked.
Absolutely no discredit to the above posts.
Fred

 

[frogwalking]

I have a home-made 20 gauge (62.5 cal.) flintlock pistol with a 10 1/2 inch barrel. I usually shoot 40 grains of 2F black powder and 12 #4 buckshot. I seldom concern myself too much about accuracy. When I do shoot a solid ball, it is ,60 caliber. Since you already have the ,395s, try them and let us know how they work.

 

[wulf]

All my 62 cal. talk a 610 ball period. The 54
and 58 is for making paper cartridges. period.
And my powder charge for the cartridges is 30 gr
as it is with the 610....

 

[Many Klatch]

I had a pair of 60 caliber smoothbores once. 20 to 25 grains of 2F was plenty of powder. I tried more powder a couple of times and didn't care for the recoil. You will probably find that the accuracy for these pistols starts to go downhill fast once you get past 15 feet. They were designed to be good pistols to bring to a sword fight. Buckshot is probably a better load.

 

[Robert Egler]

They were designed to be good pistols to bring to a sword fight.

I love that! Best way I've ever seen it stated.
:hatsoff:

 

[Toomuch51]

Yes I will be buying Goex FFg powder; I was planning on a 60 grain charge but I suppose I can work up to that and maybe use a smaller ball for that?

A 60gr charge for a pistol will nearly rip your hand off, add to that that accuracy sucks and you will be lucky to hit the side of a barn while standing inside of it. You will do well to hedge more toward a lighter charge (if accuracy is your goal),you find this out rather quickly.
Also for a pistol I would use 3f for both main charge and prime instead of 2f for charge and 4f for prime.

Toomuch
...........
Shoot Flint

 

[Toomuch51]

Also while I'm at it; I've read in many books to seat the ball firmly on the powder. But the how-to article on the forum (which I believe is the same one Chuck Hawks has) says to only seat the ball until it touches the powder. Are both of these methods correct? Which one is the safer method? I would much rather learn and practice correctly than incorrectly.

The ball (or shot column) should be seated firmly on the powder charge.

Toomuch
...........
Shoot Flint

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Many of the older Italian made guns are labeled 44 caliber but can be anything from 43 caliber to 45, although normally they ran on the tight side.

 

[Billnpatti]

Jack Wilson said:
Seriously? "thermal coefficient of expansion"? Daniel and Davy are rolling over in their graves.

Don't worry about such manure as Danny and Davie turning in their graves. There is plenty of stuff going on in today's world of muzzleloading to keep them spinning at a fairly high speed for many years to come. Whenever you have a question, just ask it. Don't worry about increasing the rpm's of old Davie or Danny.

BTW, the expansion coefficent of lead is actually a non-issue for the purposes of shooting your, or any, pistol.

 

[Grumpa]

Just curious, Zonie, why the admonition against "thick patches in a pistol. Especially a smoothbore."?

And what would constitute a thick patch?