Flintlock evolution from 1720's to 1750's?

[Auldgoat]

What are the differences between flintlocks of the 1720's and 1750's? - Virginia frontier. Pics? References?
Thanks, Will

 

[dave_person]

Hi Will,
Essentially there was no flintlock evolution in the frontiers, it all ocurred in Europe. At that time in America virtually all locks were imported, mostly from England, France, Holland, and the German principalities. During the years you specified, the trend in English locks was away from round-faced to flat-faced. Export, military and cheaper civilian guns often retained round-faced locks but the higher quality English guns were moving toward flat lockplates. The other exception to this trend is that during the 1720s-50s old inexpensive flat-faced dog locks persisted and I am sure found their way to the frontiers. By the 1750s they were pretty well phased out from new production of cheap trade guns. There would generally be a transition to bridled pans and almost universal adoption of internal bridles except for the cheapest trade guns. Roller frizzens and frizzen springs, semi-waterproof pans, tumbler stirrups, etc came later. Many Germanic locks added pan and tumbler bridles and exhibited flat beveled and round-faced locks, although locks without pan bridle persisted for a long time. I can't really comment much on Dutch and French locks. The French adopted flat beveled lock plates toward the end of the 17th century but other than bridles, probably not much changed between 1720-1750. Dutch locks were probably similar. Compared with the end of the 18th century, flintlock developments during the first half of the century that substantially improved lock performance were minimal.

dave

 

[nchawkeye]

You are referring to the locks themselves, not the guns??

 

[Artificer]

Compared with the end of the 18th century, flintlock developments during the first half of the century that substantially improved lock performance were minimal.

dave

Great Info. Thank you.

Please understand I am in NO way trying to nitpick you and I may be mistaken, but I always thought adding a bridle over the tumbler/sear and another one on the pan (I.E. A Double Bridled Lock) were the most significant improvements in flintlocks?

Were roller bearings on the frizzen spring that much of an improvement in lock time or reliability? Were "waterproof" pans that important or was it only a slight improvement over a well fit frizzen to pan?

Looking forward to your comments.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Will,

Not sure if you saw it, but Dave and others gave some great info on early VA rifles in this thread:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/293532/

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
Nit pick away! I have to think about the point you raised. I agree with you that the bridles certainly improved wear and longevity but they were invented well before 1720. I have 2 nice sets of castings for locks made by Andrew Dolep in the 1690s that have tumbler bridles that look just like those on much later locks. I also have photos of a Martin Raynold pistol made in 1685 and another by James Freeman from 1710 with pan bridles. I think their adoption accelerated during 1720-1750 but they were not a new development. I am not sure they improved operating performance like speed, proper frizzen resistance, and amount of sparks very much. Then again, I am not sure roller frizzens do either. Having gained a bit of experience building and shooting bridle-less locks, a tumbler only supported by its spindle going through the lockplate will eventually wear that shaft causing it to be pushed against the lockplate by the mainspring. Talk about slowing down a lock. You can count the seconds as the cock falls and it really improves your shooting follow through. :grin: Certainly, the tumbler bridle solved that wear-related problem. I do think the geometry and balanced springs of the later English flintlocks were the key factors though, making them the best and most reliable flintlocks ever made.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
Yes I saw them. Thanks Gus.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Thanks for the additional comments, Dave.

Yes, I was aware the single and even double bridle locks went back to the late 17th century, but wasn't that mostly on pistols or high dollar guns?

When I visited Warwick Castle in the Midlands, UK in the 90's, I was delighted they had a pretty large assortment of "long" flintlock sporting guns on display and most of them were dated to the early 18th century up through around 1735 I think was the most modern dated one. These were not "cheap" guns by any measure with the amount of engraving and inlays, though not as expensive as some made for the higher nobility or Royals. I WAS surprised that most of them did not have a bridle on the pan, though of course I could not see and they were not marked whether they had an internal bridle. This told me that even with higher dollar "long" sporting guns, the lock without a pan bridle hung on longer even in England than I had thought before visiting there.

While German and "Dutch" locks were updated sooner and thus some improvement in rifles over here sooner, I wonder that other long guns in America did not lag further behind getting double bridle locks as well?

Gus

 

[Auldgoat]

Hey, nc. Yes, I was referring to the entire gun. I'm interested in developing a personna portraying a Surveyor in the Colonial period and location of Orange County, VA. Would like to somewhat pc/hc at least. Thanks.
-Will

 

[Stophel]

Target date?

1720-1750 is FAR too broad a time period.

 

[Auldgoat]

Thanks, Gus. Yep, I missed that one.

 

[Auldgoat]

Colonial settlement period of Virginia as folks were moving into the Blue Ridge. Knights of the Golden Horseshoe (1728) and the Germanna settlement and forward into the F/I war.

 

[Grumpa]

Knights of the Golden Horseshoe (1728).

I had to look that one up. A good time was had by all! :thumbsup:

 

[Stophel]

There's a lot of confusion over the term "early", but 1728 is pretty early. :haha: I'm wondering if an actual gunmaker might even have existed in Virginia at this time :idunno: If so, not very many. Any guns likely as not would be of English manufacture. And at this date, frankly, the English were lagging pretty far behind everyone else in gun styling. Most English guns I've seen of this period tend to look like fat Dutch muskets. By the middle of the century, the English were making basically copies of fine Spanish guns (from about 30 or 40 years earlier...) and the "English fowler" that everyone knows and loves came into being. Before that, though, think bulbous and musket-like. Boat paddles. An exaggeration, maybe, but probably not much of one! :haha:

NOT an original gun, but of original form of a common British trade gun of the 1700-1720 period (not to criticize the incredible Mr. Gahagan, but a stock of ash, beech, or walnut would probably be more suitable): http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/07/english-trade-gun-by-ken-gahagan.html

Here is a British Sea Service dog lock musket from 1711. The stock is ash or conceivably elm, hard to tell from the photos and the black paint!: http://www.icollector.com/British-Queen-Anne-Dog-Lock-Sea-Service-Musket_i11407154

King William musket, with an apparent Virginia association, late 17th century. And again, a black painted ash stock: http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?id=116291

Best examples on the internet I could come up with from quick searches.

English guns are definitely not my thing, so I'm not an expert, by any means, but what I have seen from this period all tend to fall along these lines. During the 1730's and 40's, the English begin to start catching up with everyone else, stylistically, making slimmer guns with more finesse, but I think these earlier guns have a charm of their own. :wink:

 

[Artificer]

FWIW, John Brush was an early gunsmith who actually made guns in Va. The only known surviving civilian firearm signed by a Williamsburg gunsmith is a screw barrel pistol by John Brush. Brush came to Williamsburg in 1717 and died in 1726. The estate of Henry Bowcock, who died a few miles from Williamsburg in 1729, included “1 bird piece made by Brush.” That lets us know he also made fowlers. [See: The Gunsmith in Colonial Virginia by Harold B. Gill, Jr. 1974] He was also the first Keeper or Publick Armourer of the “New” brick powder magazine at Williamsburg after it was built in 1715. The screw barrel pistol and some early VA guns may be found in the following link: http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/09/colonial-williamsburg-photos_17.html

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK speaking very generic on European locks of the period from 1720-`1750...

At just about that year...1720... the "doglock" style lock, which came in a couple of variations one of which some call an English Lock was phased out for new production military guns in much of Europe and colonies from European nations....now civilian suppliers of gunparts...well they'd keep selling old style parts for guns as long as people would buy them....since Virginia was a colony for almost the entire 17th century, there certainly were guns in Virginia that had doglocks...now how long those locks might have been imported as "new" or reused is anybody's guess.

It should be noted that Sweden and Norway continued to use the doglock style flintlock into the 1830's.

The next change to locks was mentioned...the use of a bridled pan. Folks think that the rounded lockplate transitioned from that to the flat...but the older doglocks normally had flat sideplates...so the rounded plate went back and forth for a while in the 1700's.

The actual shape of the lock face became less pronounced concerning the downward bend at the back of the lock by the 1750's, sometimes this is called a "banana" shape...though the Germans seem to have been some of the last lock makers to change that feature.

That's really all there was by 1750 for overall design changes. The Spaniards very often used grooved faced frizzens on a great many of their guns during the same time period...and a few English made guns survive today that incorporated that feature, but it did see widespread use outside of Spain.

In the second half of the 18th century you find innovations such as the "weatherproof" pan, rollers on the frizzen cam or rollers on the frizzen spring, and although the "dog" on the lock disappeared, a few locks appeared with a sliding "lock" or safety. Military locks for some countries returned to the "double throat" style that you see on French and American muskets (though the double throat can be found on British musket locks at the beginning of the 1800's).

LD

 

[scotsman]

Great information and a super interesting discussion going on in this thread. I have certainly learned a lot! thanks

 

[Auldgoat]

Thanks, all. I appreciate your responses. Lots of good info to work with!
Will

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I agree, if you check out this thread you can see in the photos that the Swedish 1815 musket lock does not have a bridled pan...I was startled when I saw it.

LD

 

[nchawkeye]

The earliest account of a gunsmith in Virginia I have run across was actually in the 1620-22 time period...He was in Jamestown of course but unfortunately we don't have examples of his guns... :grin: