Flintlock Rifle Flash Hole Placement

[Ruffedgrouse]

Please help!!! I have just received 2 Traditions Flintlock Muzzleloader Rifles (Hawken Woodsman and Deluxe Kentucky Rifle both in 50 cal.) as gifts from my Wife. I have a number of percussion cap rifles as well as a couple of in-lines and have enjoyed muzzleloader shooting and hunting for decades.

My issue is, I've noticed the flash holes on both of these Traditions Flintlock Rifles are at the bottom of the pan. I have done extensive on-line research and every article and blog I've read tells me the hole on the flash hole should align at the top edge of the powder pan, like the setting sun on the horizon...

I have been reaching out to the head of Traditions customer service repeatedly for over a month, explaining my issues with this setup, allowing the flash hole to either be covered by powder, causing a delayed ignition or the powder going into the flash hole, causing a fusing effect and delayed fire. With a higher flash hole, the flame from the powder pan travels up and out - into the unblocked flash hole, delivering timely ignition. And, the frizzen helps cover the hole and prevent these powder issues from happening. I have sent links and blog comments in my emails to him, validating my concerns.

I am an active Wisconsin Outdoorsman and hunter and do want to be distracted by having to tap the lock side of the rifle to drive the powder to the outside and away from the flash hole before I shoot. In addition, the powder pans look a bit on the shallow side. As a hunter, we walk around the area we are hunting at times and this could cause the powder to shift with movement as we shoulder, switch hands, etc. covering up the flash hole. Hunting is not bench shooting...

After several weeks of repeatedly reaching out to the customer service/warranty manager through e-mails and voice mails, asking to try and find me rifles with the proper flash hole alignment, I was told, that's just the way the rifles are designed and if you don't like it, return the rifles to us and we will refund your money. I received this response from the customer service manager after considerable frustration and finally leaving a message for CEO of Traditions Firearms.

As a last resort, I could invest in a spring vise, remove the powder pan from the lock, file down the under edge of the powder pan, thus dropping it lower in relation to the flash hole. But, why void the warranty and who knows what other issues this would cause with frizzen alignment, etc.

As someone who has been hunting for decades, I firmly believe we owe it to the animals we hunt to make a quick, humane, and accurate shot - not be distracted by a hang-fire - or the thought of.

Is this what is to be expected of a $600 dollar Flintlock?

These are my 1st Flintlock Muzzleloader Rifles and the input and advice of Muzzleloading Forum members would be greatly appreciated.

V/R,

Ruffedgrouse

 

[R Ellis]

Can you post pictures of the lock so we can see the flash hole area

 

[PathfinderNC]

Easiest thing to do if you have a Dremel Tool or equivalent. Use a grinder bit and grind the pan a little deeper.
I had to deepen the pan for this build and shift it forward. Does the job!

 

[Pete G]

It will be fine. Most military rifles have a low vent, as do the Kibler rifles.

 

[deerstalkert]

much ado about nothing. shoot the things. i have flintlocks with vent holes at just about every position of the clock. load it right, keep the vent clear and they will shoot.
Traditions are 600.00 ? amazing!

 

[EC121]

Hard to tell without a picture but the vent location isn't all that critical. Have you tried it or are you crying before you are hit. Just don't fill the pan up all the way.

Is this what is to be expected of a $600 dollar Flintlock?

In today's market that is exactly what you can expect from a $600 Italian/Spanish flintlock.

 

[The Appalachian]

You say the pans are somewhat shallow....so, grind the dang things deeper with a dremel and be done with it.

Otherwise I concur with what's been said above.

 

[M. De Land]

Personally I have never cared for the Traditions design of breeching which is why the flash holes are always on the low side of the pan.

 

[flatcreek]

Send them both back and buy a better rifle.

 

[Jasonb1911]

much ado about nothing. shoot the things. i have flintlocks with vent holes at just about every position of the clock. load it right, keep the vent clear and they will shoot.
Traditions are 600.00 ? amazing!

This ^^^^^^

Enjoy the rifles your amazing wife bought you! They should be fine and perform well for you.

I have several flintlocks from custom fabricated to cheap kit gun. Powder position in the pan, over touch hole, below touch hole, powder in the touch hole, etc, etc, makes no discernable difference. Any difference in ignition speed is going to be measured in milliseconds....too tiny for you or an animal you are shooting at to make any difference at all. Just keep the vent clear between shots and you won't have anything to worry about.

 

[kyron4]

The touch hole on my Traditions Kentucky sits a little low also. With the large counter sink in the liner it can look lower than what it is. I've never had an issue in the several hundreds shots fired.

Flintlocks aren't the rocket science some tend to believe. The system is very forgiving . Tests were done with touch hole location and power placement and the short answer is none of it really mattered. Not enough difference to make a difference.

Pic from the build process.

 

[S.Kenton]

I’ve got a flintlock that has the flash hole a little lower than I’d like, however I just use less priming powder and enlarged the flashole to 5/16. That particular rifle has the fastest ignition of all my flintlocks. I’d shoot it and see how fast the ignition works before getting too concerned.

 

[kyron4]

I’ve got a flintlock that has the flash hole a little lower than I’d like, however I just use less priming powder and enlarged the flashole to 5/16. That particular rifle has the fastest ignition of all my flintlocks. I’d shoot it and see how fast the ignition works before getting too concerned.

5/16" !!??!

 

[S.Kenton]

5/16" !!??!

Sorry that’s 1/16… it’s late!

 

[kyron4]

Sorry that’s 1/16… it’s late!

I figured that was the case. Just having some fun.

 

[leadhoarder]

5/16 is large enough for a squirrel hunting bore LOL.

 

[M. De Land]

This ^^^^^^

Enjoy the rifles your amazing wife bought you! They should be fine and perform well for you.

I have several flintlocks from custom fabricated to cheap kit gun. Powder position in the pan, over touch hole, below touch hole, powder in the touch hole, etc, etc, makes no discernable difference. Any difference in ignition speed is going to be measured in milliseconds....too tiny for you or your an animal you are shooting at to make any difference at all. Just keep the vent clear between shots and you won't have anything to worry about.

I can sure tell the difference in ignition speed from a well tuned lock as apposed to one that is inconsistent, so can my scores.

 

[flconch53]

I can sure tell the difference in ignition speed from a well tuned lock as apposed to one that is inconsistent, so can my scores.

This is a good example of overthinking the geometry of a budget gun. I know that is a weird statement for a $600.00 dollar gun. But that is the way of things. As many have said take em out and shoot them. If they shoot good enjoy. Follow the old adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

 

[longcruise]

Larry Pletcher did some fairly sophisticated experiments timing ignition speeds with various vent hole placement. Pretty much showed that placement isn't important.

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/touch-hole-ignition-timing/

 

[Grenadier1758]

What you are trying to do is to get the hottest part of the burning powder nearest the touch hole. That will be just above the surface of the burning powder. Distribute the powder across the pan so the top of the powder is just under the touch hole. In some cases, this is less powder or banked slightly away from the touch hole. Deepening the pan and having it dish away from the touch hole will help. I do prefer that the pan is slightly deeper to hole a little more powder to burn right by the touch hole. The other truth is that the placement isn't all that critical. Not much has really changed since Larry Pletcher wrote that article that @longcruise linked above.