Flintlock vent liners in the 18th century??

[Leadball loader]

I know vent liners are common on repro guns but when was the practice started?
I believe that original guns would have only had eroded vents plugged and redrilled not cones as modern vents are.
this question came to mind after a gun show conversation with a fellow displaying several modern built rifles all of them with lined vents.
He said old guns were made with liners. Is he correct?

 

[Grenadier1758]

A very few top end British rifles to the end of the flint lock era may have had a vent liner. The vast majority of rifles and smooth bores had a drilled touch hole. Some may have had an internal cone but that too is seldom seen.

 

[eggwelder]

NWTrade gun barrel with brass vent liner. Don`t know if its coned, probably not. Undoubtedly NOT made with it. This is a Wilson barrel

 

[MC One Shot]

I would tend to believe that firearms in the day were not shot the number of times each time they were used as they are today. Thus not needing liners as frequently as we do today. As well they were shooting for food mostly so the need for competition accurate was not required. As well it may have been deemed an un-necessary expense back then.

 

[rich pierce]

I’ve seen several original flint rifles with vent liners. They are typically very small in diameter and are probably not coned. By small I mean like a #12 bolt size. It was hard to drill back in those days and they did not go bigger than needed. A number of gunsmith accounts record re-bushing a vent that was worn.

 

[mhb]

Many high-grade arms were made with vent liners, beginning with gold, in the last quarter of the 18th century. My J. Probin 20 bore officer's dueller, made ca. 1785, has a gold liner. Later, platinum was used, and is much more durable.

mhb - MIke

 

[Leadball loader]

I was aware of relining vents but, I would like to know when the practice of coned vent lining became common.
It seems to me it must be a fairly recent innovation.

 

[rich pierce]

On original American longrifles I’d be surprised if 1 in 50 had coned vent liners.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

A pretty little Ezikel Baker 22Bore Flint SXS that came back from India in the late 60's (engraved on the top rib--MAKER TO THE PRINCE REGENT) but may have ben finished for KG4 and was possibly gifted to the EIC or an Indian Aristocrat. Not going to tell you it's No. It has Gold Lined Vents but is minus the Locks(have a pair part finished to replace them but need more details (any Info Rudyard)). A few surviving members of the MLA may remember this gun. It was exchanged for a 16b Flint Manton that I rebuilt that went on to gain many MLA & MLAIC Medals in 70's and 80's.. Pity y'all din hav no gold till '49 or the Yukon.. Please excuse the Old country humour But many Flint guns have passed thru' my hands that were gold lined before 1800 even early1800 with PLATINA.. VERY OLD DOG..

 

[Pukka Bundook]

By the mid to later 18th C, many top flight English guns had gold touchhole liners. By the 19th C platinum was favoured as it withstands burn -out V well.
Platinum was noted above in a reply.
These were coned liners, as wel see today. Mine of 1815 or so has platinum liners and coned out well on the inside.
This can be felt with a fine wire.
Also, more common in Germany, were screw -in liners with two shallow holes, one each side of the touchhole, for a special turnscrew.
These were used on wheellocks as well as with flint.
In the US, I think it fairly common to cone out a touchhole from the inside. Wallace Gusler and his team did it this way at the gunshop at Colonial Williamsburg.

Photo of the 1815 platinum liners I mentioned above;

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Greenswlde if you PM me dimensions I might have some thing .I know your skill but might have parts or idea's . Pukka I think you nailed it on the vents which is to say I agree Cheers Rudyard

 

[Leadball loader]

It appears that coned liners were to some degree used in high end guns in Europe and the British Isles during the late 18th century and to a limited extent in guns made in America. The claim the gentleman at the gun show made could be considered correct. But in rare cases in the American cottage gun making trade.
My interest though was when did modern reproduction gun makers begin to make coned vents part of each piece they made. The common rifles, muskets and fusil of the early and middle 18th century were utility guns not high end. They would not have been in likely to receive that technical innovation.
The emergence of the modern muzzle loading renaissance dates to when?
LB

 

[Rudyard]

While ML gun makeing never did die out I would guess the renaissance so to speak would be 40s or 50s .Such as the NMLRA would be a reliable traceing reference and supplies of parts would gradually increase .Then factor in ' Davy Crockett ' type films even Spencer Tracey in' North West Passage ' added fuel . Chunk gunner,s seem never to have ceased. Alvin York stuff but good wholesome fun .Where there is demand gun makers will rise to the need . Ron Southgate rifles even reached NZ & Hacker Martin was another early name .Bill Large put me onto the first R vous I went too at Shawnee State Forest 1981? .But there where English Civil War & Napolionic ect groups in the UK . Gradually the hobby bloomed wonderfully if it seemed to reach a peak by the late 80,s. But has since got very sophisticated with many able gun & accoutrement makers . Who looked beyond the regional basic and the market is well supplied with inventive minds such as Pukka & Dave Person and a host of newer makers to rival the Bob Harn. Monty Manderino, Jim Hash and a host of others equally worthy .( At a pinch you could add that Rudyard fellow he's been very versatile at least & supplied barrels & locks ect to many who seldom got to the makers sources .)I used to make Nocks patent breeches on shotguns of my make & have mostly fitted vents where suitable . I think your answer lies some where in this observation . I have not considered all the factory made offerings they obviously have a place but I have had little to do with them beyond as stock.
Regards Rudyard

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Who were the NMLRA and further that RUDYARD fellow has FORGOTTEN more than most of y'al Xperts ever nu. He was producing Museam quality guns before most of ya was pupped and some that gained Golds at MLA events in the afor New MLAIC was born. If any of ya has slep uner a bush an,then shot and position'd in 1000 yrds events ya can talk..

 

[GREENSWLDE]

The vent on the barrel shewn by EGGWELDERks similar to my Baker but mine is rust free. It has poof marks that I have been unable to trace .

 

[Leadball loader]

While ML gun makeing never did die out I would guess the renaissance so to speak would be 40s or 50s .Such as the NMLRA would be a reliable traceing reference and supplies of parts would gradually increase .Then factor in ' Davy Crockett ' type films even Spencer Tracey in' North West Passage ' added fuel . Chunk gunner,s seem never to have ceased. Alvin York stuff but good wholesome fun .Where there is demand gun makers will rise to the need . Ron Southgate rifles even reached NZ & Hacker Martin was another early name .Bill Large put me onto the first R vous I went too at Shawnee State Forest 1981? .But there where English Civil War & Napolionic ect groups in the UK . Gradually the hobby bloomed wonderfully if it seemed to reach a peak by the late 80,s. But has since got very sophisticated with many able gun & accoutrement makers . Who looked beyond the regional basic and the market is well supplied with inventive minds such as Pukka & Dave Person and a host of newer makers to rival the Bob Harn. Monty Manderino, Jim Hash and a host of others equally worthy .( At a pinch you could add that Rudyard fellow he's been very versatile at least & supplied barrels & locks ect to many who seldom got to the makers sources .)I used to make Nocks patent breeches on shotguns of my make & have mostly fitted vents where suitable . I think your answer lies some where in this observation . I have not considered all the factory made offerings they obviously have a place but I have had little to do with them beyond as stock.
Regards Rudyard

Rudyard your comments on the timeline of modern muzzle loading are in line with my thoughts. I don't have any idea of the number of makers from the forty's and fifty's and later, but it shows that American muzzle loading is still cottage based I think. This has driven the introduction of mass production guns which in turn has caused increased interest in today's master gun makers.
I did not think of the influence outside of the U S also being an added factor in modern muzzle loading interest. It is probably as influential as that in the U S.
It would be an interesting history if there was a book on gun makers of the modern era.
Thanks for your informative response.
LBL

 

[Pukka Bundook]

RE touchhole liners;
I'd like to add that for livery weapons, (namely pistols, coaching carbines, and some blunderbusses carried for personal protection),
These normally had just a pierced touchhole, not lined. Here I'm meaning 18th C.
Such unlined touchholes were often coned out inside.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Greenswlde & LBL plus Pukka. You have made my day. I found the curious style ammuseing if I cant recall placing at a thousand but I did often shoot after a night at the 'Starlight Hotel,' (hot & cold running squirrels but the tariff was very modest) . The National muzzle loading rifle Association Who's Journal 'Muzzle Blasts' is similar to the UK Muzzle loaders Associations ' Black Powder '. If it started earlier at Friendship Ohio (Later moving to F 'ship Indiana ) Both journals will trace the earliest days of what might be called a Rennaisance though in each case the use of MLs and manufacture never really died out . Wildfowlers kept to muzzle loaders and punt gunners in UK And Australia kept making up punt guns ,' Felt Wad' knows their story very well. I've restored such guns used along the Murray river though today they are banned there .

Re the book on Contempory makers There was one such put out by Robert Weil. but Ime not sure if the intended sequel ever got done . Russ Young took photos for it including my own but there are so many worthy gunmakers today that it would be a very full work . However We do have a whole; Contempory Longrifle Association ;Easy to Google up . I've only made about a dozen so hardly rate a mention as far as long rifles go ( my 190 or so where very diverse ) stock shapes intrigue me I've made numerous ethnological pieces and early stuff .They where all made by gun makers for their local patrons who had about the same basic shape as we all do as humans and from my angle we are all' Brothers chip.' Nice thought for Easter .
Regards Rudyard

As a PS I recall Lynton Mackenzie telling us at a dusty seminar at F 'ship that he had examined all the old guns he could to see if they had shortened vents internally & he found that this was very common practice to deepen them internally . R

 

[smoothshooter]

I would tend to believe that firearms in the day were not shot the number of times each time they were used as they are today. Thus not needing liners as frequently as we do today. As well they were shooting for food mostly so the need for competition accurate was not required. As well it may have been deemed an un-necessary expense back then.

I suspect excessively picking of the vent hole with iron picks, especially the square shanked ones, did ( and still does ) more damage than erosion.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Depending on where they were in the world, a lot of sporting guns got much more use than today.

The double I showed in the post above, has had the hammers, (frizzens) re-faced twice in its working life.
The first re-facing still shows, but is nearly worn away, then a newer surface riveted on top.