Flintlocks and Black Powder

[Stone]

Wouldn't it be easy enough to prove/disprove?

I watched a video of some guys who loaded smokeless powder in a Flintlock and remotely triggered it with a ballistics gel dummy. The dummy died a horrible death!

Load it up with a little too much 4F, trigger it remotely, and see what happens?

Video

 

[Brokennock]

And here in lies "the crux of the biscuit."

Those of us asking for evidence of blown up guns and injured people from the use of 4f as a main charge are not advocating using, "too much," or even, as much, of a powder charge.
We are not even telling people to use it, only that it is possible, done responsibly.

And you are quite correct about testing. One doesn't even need to blow up the barrels. Someone with access to the equipment to pressure test a few barrels, could easily do the test. But, I think at least one barrel would need to be tested to failure, both for dramatic effect and so we can see the pressure increases leading up to the point of failure, if any. Of course, to be fair, the same test should be done with 2f and 3f. But, this would get expensive, that is a lot of barrels, a lot of powder, and a lot of lead. Not to mention patches and/or wads and lube.
But man, would I love to be part of that. Regardless of end result, that would be a very interesting day.

 

[Stone]

And here in lies "the crux of the biscuit."

Those of us asking for evidence of blown up guns and injured people from the use of 4f as a main charge are not advocating using, "too much," or even, as much, of a powder charge.
We are not even telling people to use it, only that it is possible, done responsibly.

And you are quite correct about testing. One doesn't even need to blow up the barrels. Someone with access to the equipment to pressure test a few barrels, could easily do the test. But, I think at least one barrel would need to be tested to failure, both for dramatic effect and so we can see the pressure increases leading up to the point of failure, if any. Of course, to be fair, the same test should be done with 2f and 3f. But, this would get expensive, that is a lot of barrels, a lot of powder, and a lot of lead. Not to mention patches and/or wads and lube.
But man, would I love to be part of that. Regardless of end result, that would be a very interesting day.

Yeah. I guess if I had an adamant opinion against using it as a main charge, I would go to the extent of testing it? Or at least sponsoring a test by a responsible party?

As a complete and total rookie, I would think any powder would have a pressure threshold ...no?

 

[Brokennock]

Yeah. I guess if I had an adamant opinion against using it as a main charge, I would go to the extent of testing it? Or at least sponsoring a test by a responsible party?

As a complete and total rookie, I would think any powder would have a pressure threshold ...no?

Yup, I agree across the board. Especially that, yes, at some point a pressure threshold could be reached with any powder. But, I think it is a lot higher than most think for most black powders, and probably in the realm of impractical amounts.

If one reads texts from the period that talk of shooting or shooting supplies, there are many references to "finest powder" especially when speaking of obtaining powder for rifles. Some have also noted that many of the few original powder chargers we have available would through a fairly small charge compared to what we are used to. It has been assumed that these are half charges for use as small game charges that are then doubled for bigger game and fighting. Maybe they were the primary charge when using very fine powder? Or, maybe "finest" was just a statement of quality, we will probably never know.

 

[Daryl Crawford]

I've avoided jumping it but I do want to offer one word of caution on using 4f down the barrel of a flintlock. I have two guns (1 smoothbore and 1 rifle) that clearly self prime with anything smaller than 2f powder. It is something to keep in mind if choosing to try 4f as a main charge.

 

[Stone]

I've avoided jumping it but I do want to offer one word of caution on using 4f down the barrel of a flintlock. I have two guns (1 smoothbore and 1 rifle) that clearly self prime with anything smaller than 2f powder. It is something to keep in mind if choosing to try 4f as a main charge.

I'm a rookie. Are you referring to powder down the barrel finding its way into the pan?

 

[Daryl Crawford]

@Stone yes I am. The touch hole is large enough to allow powder to trickle out into the pan.

 

[Brokennock]

I'm a rookie. Are you referring to powder down the barrel finding its way into the pan?

Yup. My Fusil des Chase will even let a few granules of 3f escape into the pan. This is why flintlock have been known to go off when someone drops the flint on the frizzen even when they didn't prime the pan
I used to be on a forum, that no longer exists, that had an owner/moderator shoot a hole in his cabin wall without deliberately priming the pan.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I've avoided jumping it but I do want to offer one word of caution on using 4f down the barrel of a flintlock. I have two guns (1 smoothbore and 1 rifle) that clearly self prime with anything smaller than 2f powder. It is something to keep in mind if choosing to try 4f as a main charge.

So what you do is stick a prick in there first. I always do, for fast ignition.

 

[Britsmoothy]

The early matchlock shooters used black powder meal, dust essentially.
Muzzleloading still caught on!

I honestly think a lot of folks interpretation of what actually goes on in the breech is a little upside down.
Some seem to think higher breech pressure is bad. Why is it? At what point does it suddenly get bad? How can we shoot something without pressure. Who determines good pressure and bad pressure? Crazy notions giving birth to useless questions giving birth to fear but completely unfounded.
Do reasonable men here honestly believe that barrel makers have NOT tested their barrels? Would they not clearly state whether a certain powder type should not be used? Wait, they do! No smokeless type powder. But they don't do the same for 4f!
So what we have is some folk that are elevating themselves above their authority on the subject. They, without a shred of testing are propelling themselves as profits of doom in a vien attempt to impress others. This is obvious by their response when someone comes along and pokes a hole in their theory.
Why do manufacturers put a warning on their barrels BLACK POWDER ONLY?
The primary reason is that a muzzleloader of traditional design is open breeched. It by default has high pressure escaping via the nipple or vent. With the vast choice in speeds of smokeless a much higher pressure can get forced out of the vent. There is a clear risk of fragments of cap, nipple, frizzens and flints being dislodged and causing injury. IT IS NOT THE BARREL WILL BURST PRIMARILY.
For example. Many early breech loading shotguns with only blackpowder proof marks of all barrel types were subjected to nitro proof so as to use the new cartridges emerging on the market and we're successful. Why? Because the breech is sealed!
Sure you can blow a muzzleloader to bits with nitro powder but so can you also do the same to any firearm.
Fill a 50bmg case with bullseye and stand back!
In essence the barrel is not the worry. If its got blackpowder in it there is no concern, irrespective of granulation size.
The experiments have been done. Look up Sam Fadala for one resource. Look up them that have made all manner of firearms from screwed pipe fittings and NO I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT PRACTICE but it has been mentioned because it emphathises that the barrels on our muzzleloaders are not going to burst.
One other thing I don't get is, why is it OK to use 4f in a small pistol. Or revolver. Often with nipples pointing directly back at the shooter and of thinner chamber wall thickness its OK to use but somehow in a thicker barrelled long gun and of larger bore it becomes mysteriously dangerous!
If anything a larger bore causes a drop in pressure!

The other topsy-turvy notion is of how 4f verses 1f burns, flame fronts and all that blah blah. Some believe that because the larger grains burn slower it is somehow ideal. It's not!
What is ideal is consistency. For consistency we want all the charge alight as quick as possible preferably before added variables start via the projectile starting to move off. Talking in terms of nano seconds here the less variation in timings of complete combustion is crucial to consistency and consistent barrel harmonics. The longer it takes to reach complete combustion just opens the door to more variation in times, pressure development and quite possibly higher and irregular muzzle pressures. In short, most of us are thinking backwards on the subject!
The fact 4f increases breech pressure over courser grades is in fact ideal! It's perfect in fact! It's what we actually need and nothing to fear at all.
My finest grade powder, measured and with the help of zonie we determined was a mix of mostly 4f and some 3f. I have loaded it in a bess and heavy shot loads for years. A 20g (.63) upto 100gns. 12gs a plenty, flint and cap. No issues. Never ever shall I purchase anything courser than 3f again. It was terrible. I would rather use an airgun than that stuff!
Instead of fearing higher pressure from a normal loading procedure for a traditional muzzleloader I say embrace it. Why all the fear? No, why all the unfounded fear?
The only fear to respect when it comes to muzzleloading is a cavity. A gap between powder and ball. In that scenario it matters not one bit what granulation the powder is does it!

 

[Erwan]

Hi, Britsmoothy,
Have you heard about the infantilizing of the masses in modern societies?
Have a nice day.

 

[Patched]

The early matchlock shooters used black powder meal, dust essentially.
Muzzleloading still caught on!

I honestly think a lot of folks interpretation of what actually goes on in the breech is a little upside down.
Some seem to think higher breech pressure is bad. Why is it? At what point does it suddenly get bad? How can we shoot something without pressure. Who determines good pressure and bad pressure? Crazy notions giving birth to useless questions giving birth to fear but completely unfounded.
Do reasonable men here honestly believe that barrel makers have NOT tested their barrels? Would they not clearly state whether a certain powder type should not be used? Wait, they do! No smokeless type powder. But they don't do the same for 4f!
So what we have is some folk that are elevating themselves above their authority on the subject. They, without a shred of testing are propelling themselves as profits of doom in a vien attempt to impress others. This is obvious by their response when someone comes along and pokes a hole in their theory.
Why do manufacturers put a warning on their barrels BLACK POWDER ONLY?
The primary reason is that a muzzleloader of traditional design is open breeched. It by default has high pressure escaping via the nipple or vent. With the vast choice in speeds of smokeless a much higher pressure can get forced out of the vent. There is a clear risk of fragments of cap, nipple, frizzens and flints being dislodged and causing injury. IT IS NOT THE BARREL WILL BURST PRIMARILY.
For example. Many early breech loading shotguns with only blackpowder proof marks of all barrel types were subjected to nitro proof so as to use the new cartridges emerging on the market and we're successful. Why? Because the breech is sealed!
Sure you can blow a muzzleloader to bits with nitro powder but so can you also do the same to any firearm.
Fill a 50bmg case with bullseye and stand back!
In essence the barrel is not the worry. If its got blackpowder in it there is no concern, irrespective of granulation size.
The experiments have been done. Look up Sam Fadala for one resource. Look up them that have made all manner of firearms from screwed pipe fittings and NO I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT PRACTICE but it has been mentioned because it emphathises that the barrels on our muzzleloaders are not going to burst.
One other thing I don't get is, why is it OK to use 4f in a small pistol. Or revolver. Often with nipples pointing directly back at the shooter and of thinner chamber wall thickness its OK to use but somehow in a thicker barrelled long gun and of larger bore it becomes mysteriously dangerous!
If anything a larger bore causes a drop in pressure!

The other topsy-turvy notion is of how 4f verses 1f burns, flame fronts and all that blah blah. Some believe that because the larger grains burn slower it is somehow ideal. It's not!
What is ideal is consistency. For consistency we want all the charge alight as quick as possible preferably before added variables start via the projectile starting to move off. Talking in terms of nano seconds here the less variation in timings of complete combustion is crucial to consistency and consistent barrel harmonics. The longer it takes to reach complete combustion just opens the door to more variation in times, pressure development and quite possibly higher and irregular muzzle pressures. In short, most of us are thinking backwards on the subject!
The fact 4f increases breech pressure over courser grades is in fact ideal! It's perfect in fact! It's what we actually need and nothing to fear at all.
My finest grade powder, measured and with the help of zonie we determined was a mix of mostly 4f and some 3f. I have loaded it in a bess and heavy shot loads for years. A 20g (.63) upto 100gns. 12gs a plenty, flint and cap. No issues. Never ever shall I purchase anything courser than 3f again. It was terrible. I would rather use an airgun than that stuff!
Instead of fearing higher pressure from a normal loading procedure for a traditional muzzleloader I say embrace it. Why all the fear? No, why all the unfounded fear?
The only fear to respect when it comes to muzzleloading is a cavity. A gap between powder and ball. In that scenario it matters not one bit what granulation the powder is does it!

Back in the 1980s (and earlier) by way of the printing press, test results were revealed.

(Via Sam Fadala, Mike Nesbit, John Baird, others and earlier other guys J.Kindig, G. Shumway, N.Roberts, H. Pope etc ALL THE BLACK POWDER SAINTS AND SAGES……
I can’t cite specific articles or scripture….but one or several of the mentioned venerated saints of knowledge conducted tests.

The object was to destroy a ”modern” steel black powder barrel by overloading it….double balls, completely filling the barrel with powder, finer grades of powder, double projectiles on top of full barrels… crazy loading stuff…

As the scripture revealed, ONLY by not seating the projectile against the powder we’re they able to bulge or burst a barrel, blowout a breechplug, render a barrel no longer usable.

Why have none of you “large calibre rated” forum members not cited the black powder scriptures?…Verily I say to you, it has been written.

 

[Stone]

Yup. My Fusil des Chase will even let a few granules of 3f escape into the pan. This is why flintlock have been known to go off when someone drops the flint on the frizzen even when they didn't prime the pan
I used to be on a forum, that no longer exists, that had an owner/moderator shoot a hole in his cabin wall without deliberately priming the pan.

This brings up another question. Being an ultra safe hunter/shooter my entire life I concluded that the safe/legal way to transport a Flintlock is with the hammer all the way down and the frisson all the way up?

 

[Jim Evans]

This brings up another question. Being an ultra safe hunter/shooter my entire life I concluded that the safe/legal way to transport a Flintlock is with the hammer all the way down and the frisson all the way up?

I use a leather frizzen cover.

 

[Feltwad]

I use a leather frizzen cover.

I have always used a frizzen cover made of soft leather which is attached to a fine length of chain to the trigger guard
Feltwad

 

[Britsmoothy]

This brings up another question. Being an ultra safe hunter/shooter my entire life I concluded that the safe/legal way to transport a Flintlock is with the hammer all the way down and the frisson all the way up?

And plug/prick the vent.

 

[david w]

This brings up another question. Being an ultra safe hunter/shooter my entire life I concluded that the safe/legal way to transport a Flintlock is with the hammer all the way down and the frisson all the way up?

In most states, a flintlock can be transported with a loaded barrel as long as the hammer is down and the frizzen is up. You can place a tooth pick in the touch hole which protects the main charge from ignition. Out in the field, you can use a leather boot over the frizzen.

 

[Brokennock]

Yup. What the gentlemen above stated.
Flintcock forward, frizzen and pan open, and flash hole plugged with a feather quill, toothpick, or wood/bamboo BBQ skewer.
I'm assuming by "transport" you mean in a vehicle.
Most states consider a flintlock unloaded for the purpose of transportation, or compliance with legal hunting hours, when there is no priming powder in the pan.

 

[Stone]

Yup. What the gentlemen above stated.
Flintcock forward, frizzen and pan open, and flash hole plugged with a feather quill, toothpick, or wood/bamboo BBQ skewer.
I'm assuming by "transport" you mean in a vehicle.
Most states consider a flintlock unloaded for the purpose of transportation, or compliance with legal hunting hours, when there is no priming powder in the pan.

Yeah, we had to resort to putting on short drives because there were no hunters in the woods and the deer weren't moving. So, prime the pan, stand or drive for 20-30 minutes, unload the pan, jump in the truck, and drive to the next spot.

Putting something in the touch hole is another step I like for safety sake!

 

[Crow-Feather]

What proof? None of you have proven a damn thing.
You are the one's telling people what to do and what not to do.
Neither Britsmoothy or myself nor anyone else who is asking you for examples of damage done by 4f Asa main charge, gas told anyone they have to use it too.

Show us the damage, show us the injury. Otherwise stop telling us to be quiet and shut the heck up yourself.

My last post on this topic,
If some new shooter takes your advice and ends up double loading a rifle of dubious quality which cannot take the extremely high pressure and the rifle lets go injuring several bystanders and the shooter, how are you going to handle that? What will you say?