Found a neat gun...

[DutchmanDick]

I found what I think is an interesting gun in a local gun shop that has been around for many, many years (the oldster who owns the shop says he's got guns that have been in storage in the basement of the shop for 50 years or more, and he rotates them out onto the sales floor every so often).
The gun is a Springfield M1842 musket, with a lockplate dated 1845, that was converted into a civilian shotgun. The stock was cut back, a ramrod thimble brazed to the underside of the barrel (the original iron ramrod was retained), the original front barrel band modified to retain the barrel at the new forearm end, and a bead put on the muzzle. It still retains the original buttplate and trigger guard (sans sling swivel). It looks like the conversion was done long ago, and I've seen similar guns in my reprints of the fall/winter 1894-1895 Monkey Wards catalogue and my 1927 Bannerman's catalogue. I'm guessing they were available even earlier than that - perhaps even before the Civil War, since although 1842's were used in that war they were essentially obsolete once the 1855 rifle-musket came into general use, and this gun would already have been 16 years old when the war started.
Overall condition is pretty decent. It has obviously been used, but not abused. There is a brown patina, and the stock is dark and has a somewhat rough texture, but no pitting that I could see and no chunks of wood missing. Even the bore - or what I could see of it - was still smooth, albeit again with a brown patina inside.
Needless to say, I couldn't resist putting the gun on layaway. Given its overall condition, I think $500 was a reasonable asking price, and it should make an interesting shooter (once I check the rest of the bore for condition, that is...). I may even, one day, restore it to original military configuration, since exact repro parts are available.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Most of these conversions were done post Civil War. Do you have any way to get photos of the gun?

 

[DutchmanDick]

Probably not until I get it out of layaway, which may be a couple months, but when I have it in hand I will post some pics. I agree that it is most likely postwar. I just know that the gov't was selling surplus muskets to civilians before the war started, especially to immigrants headed for the gold-fields of California.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The surplus muskets had the advantage of being able to take big game with the ball load and small game and birds with shot. And still provide protction as well. Hard to beat that combination.

 

[DutchmanDick]

I would think that the post-war conversions would have had the same advantages, plus being lighter in weight (less wood, shorter barrel), easier to get ammo for (in the days when self-contained cartridges of any sort weren't available in the more remote areas, and powder, caps and lead or shot being cheaper than pre-loaded shells), plus being CHEAP, besides.

I'm certainly looking forward to shooting it! What gauge wads, etc. would a .69 caliber use, anyway?

 

[LeMat1856]

can't wait to see some pictures.

i use this site for loading, cards, and wads.. unfortunatly they don't sell diretly to the public.. try track of the wolf for that.
wad sizing chart

~d~
".69 caliber" = .693" bore size / 14 gauge / .703" wads & cards.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

i use this site for loading, cards, and wads.. unfortunately they don't sell directly to the public.. try track of the wolf for that.

Actually, Circle Fly does sell direct, as well as referring you to their dealers: http://www.circlefly.com/html/order_form.html
I just recently received an assortment from them to supplement the wads I punch myself.

Joel

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You'll want to measure the bore carefully. Nominally it's a 14 gauge, but years of use may have increased it a bit.

These, along with the rifle-muskets, were among the first military surplus guns to be sporterized or, if you prefer, "civilianized. The "mil-surp" business has been around for a long time. With the stock shortened and only the lower band and spring remaining, a lot of weight was saved. And often the barrels were bobbed a bit. What you wound up with was a superbly built, heavy duty, but not especially heavy shotgun. A nice thing to have out on the plains far from the nearest gunsmith!

 

[Joel/Calgary]

The gun is a Springfield M1842 musket, with a lockplate dated 1845, that was converted into a civilian shotgun. ... I may even, one day, restore it to original military configuration, since exact repro parts are available.
...
I agree that it is most likely postwar. I just know that the gov't was selling surplus muskets to civilians before the war started, especially to immigrants headed for the gold-fields of California.

Unlike many more recent "sporterizations", the history involved with these could make an argument for NOT reconverting it, but preserving this piece of history as it is now, if just as a representative of its type. Was it carried against Mexico? Was it used to defend States' rights, or to preserve the Nation, or maybe both at different times? Any are possible, but we likely can never say. We can say with greater probability that it could have provided food and protection for someone, or some family, headed West.

Both its origin and its conversion have places in our history. Each scratch and dent could have a story. If it were mine, I'd restore it to use while preserving it as-is as far as possible, and wonder occasionally as I carried it, about where else it has been and what else it has done.

I suspect you'll enjoy it.
Joel

 

[DutchmanDick]

Unlike many more recent "sporterizations", the history involved with these could make an argument for NOT reconverting it, but preserving this piece of history as it is now, if just as a representative of its type. Was it carried against Mexico? Was it used to defend States' rights, or to preserve the Nation, or maybe both at different times? Any are possible, but we likely can never say. We can say with greater probability that it could have provided food and protection for someone, or some family, headed West.

Both its origin and its conversion have places in our history. Each scratch and dent could have a story. If it were mine, I'd restore it to use while preserving it as-is as far as possible, and wonder occasionally as I carried it, about where else it has been and what else it has done.

I suspect you'll enjoy it.
Joel

You have a very valid point there. The only reason I would have considered "un-converting" it would be to use it as a re-enactment gun. However, I also have a P1853 Enfield (type 2), made in Nepal and re-marked and re-finished to resemble an early Birmingham gun, which I can use for that purpose. OTOH, if I make up some paper cartridges loaded with shot instead of ball, it could gain me some style points in the shotgun stages of a Cowboy Action match... :grin: That is, unless I tick people off by taking so long to reload... :haha:

 

[pichou]

Most of the pre-Civil War surplus was released to the states for militia use. I think that's why the South had so many early muskets?

The term "brown bess" comes up in official documents from the Black Hawk War (1832). Could be a generic term, but there is a militia portrait c. 1830 at OSV that shows a gun with mounts exactly like a bess... :shocked2:

Now back to our topic... restoration is a hot issue these days. I would think rarity would be the key. But on some guns, restoration will hurt the value.

 

[Tumblernotch]

"""Most of the pre-Civil War surplus was released to the states for militia use. I think that's why the South had so many early muskets?"""

Actually, most of the pre-War muskets sent to the various states were new muskets made at both National Armories and private armories under contract with the government. Also, several states had their own contracts with several makers such as North, Whitney, &c.

However, in the 1840's, muskets not found to be suitable for alteration to percussion nor fit to be kept in reserve as flintlocks were sold at auction. Most were bought by private speculators who would sell to anyone with the cash and some may have been bought from them by state government purchasers to augment their allowance of arms gotten through the Militia Act of 1808. Each state had a quota of arms they could draw each year. This was measured by "musket equivalents". Say for instance a state could draw 500 stand of muskets. Perhaps they don't need that many, so they draw 100 muskets and a cannon, or 200 muskets and some artillery ammunition and some harness so they could pull the cannon. Or maybe 100 muskets, 100 rifles, 50 pistols and 150 swords. It all depended on how many militia they mustered. The US government appropriated $200,000 a year to be disbursed among the states in proportion to the number of militia enrolled in each state. Sometimes a state could carry over any credit to the following year if they didn't use all of their share. This could be used in a larger purchase, such as an entire battery of guns or enough muskets to arm and entire regiment.

 

[pichou]

Very interesting. I had not payed attention to post 1830.
:thumbsup:

 

[DutchmanDick]

Well, I finally picked it up off layaway earlier this week. This is what I have:

The lock is marked "Springfield" and "1848". The barrel tang is stamped "1851". Near the breech, at the top left of the barrel are two stampings: a large "P" over a "V" close to the breech, and a little further ahead is a smaller "P3" over a "P". I'm guessing that they are proofmarks, but I don't know for certain. The left side of the stock, near the lock bolt plate, is marked with a cartouche that looks like an "EC" in an oval, but I can't tell for certain through the wear and nicks on the stock.

The barrel is 33" long, not including the tang, and the bore at the muzzle shows up as .700" in diameter on a vernier caliper. A small brass shotgun bead is the only sight. The only barrel band is solid, and appears as though friction is the only thing holding it in place. There is a steel pin, about 1/8" in diameter, through the stock just behind the band, and I'm wondering if that might be helping to keep the barrel in place. A single tube, made from sheet steel, is soldered to the underside of the barrel about 6" from the muzzle, and serves to hold the original, albeit cut-down, tulip ramrod in place. The musket-cap nipple was replaced with a smaller one with a square shank similar to a military nipple, but it looks like a #11 cap would fit it. The nipple channel is clear, and the shoulder is still sharp, and the top isn't so battered that a file couldn't restore it to service, but it looks like it would take a lot of Kroil plus possibly a bit of heat to get it out. I'd want to pull the breechplug to inspect the bore condition before shooting it anyway. The gun bears a lot of dings and dents from over a hundred years of honest use, but does not appear to have been actually abused. I have no clue as to when the conversion was made, or by whom.