French Boucheron

[LRB]

Even though it's dull, the heel of the knife seems poorly designed. I was a professional chef for 40+ years, and that looks like trouble. Granted, it's not a kitchen knife, but the sweet sweep at the heel to the business side of the blade looks like pain. I don't recall ever seeing a knife design like this. No bolster, no hilt? A pretty knife, for sure, but maybe one I'd steer clear of. JMPO. I hope folks can see what I'm saying

The simple trade knives were imported by the tens of thousands. Indian and whites both used them, and were the most common knives in use in that time. The English had their version of trade knifes that had a straighter heel that would be more to your liking.

 

[LRB]

And the knife's tang should extend to the end of the handle. More strength, better balance.

No. Not on a typical French boucheron.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Looks very good to me. Ken Hamilton now seems to believe the common boucheron had a third pin near the end of the grips and they being a 2 piece construct. A few hundred, as I recall, turned up together in a river where a large French trade canoe turned over. They were 2 piece slab grips with the third pin. Could be just another variation, or the true common method.

Haha, I was actually going to do my handle with the two slabs like that ecause it was getting frustrating as heck trying to fit the tapered tang into the tapered slot and make it look half decent. I think that was probably just a variation as these two examples seem to indicate....

 

[Red Owl]

Those scalping knives look pretty good to me. The originals might have been a little thinner than 1`/8" thick- BUT not sure, have all that stored away some place. If I recall the English used a superior steel that allowed thinner blades so the French might have been 1/8" thick. It was the same on the pins. In any event, I use that kind of blade around the kitchen and on the trail- about the most practical design ever thought up. I think we Americans are the only folks pre-occupied with a guard for safety purposes. I used do to a lot of trapping- talk about a wet, bloody handle, etc. but no one in the trapping business used knives with guards and I never heard of anyone having the fingers cut from a lack of a guard.

 

[LRB]

Cast, or crucible steel was not used by cutlers until the late 18th c. That was the superior steel you mention. English cutlers were slow to accept it because it was harder to work than blister, or shear steel, but, once the cutlers started with it, they liked it and tried to keep it secret for a time. Not sure, but I suspect blister steel was the steel used in the trade knives until cast steel blades got more common, because it was widely available and cheap compared to shear or double shear steel. Just FYI for anyone that doesn't know, cast steel is not a mold casting. It is the early form of steel made in a crucible, and also known as crucible steel. It is much superior and chemically about the same as modern 10XX steels. It was originally made by a watch maker seeking dependable springs to make dependable watches, which allowed navigators to use longitude for navigating the seas. There is a movie called "LONGITUDE" that tells all about it.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You have crazy talent. How did you learn to make knifes? I don't think there is a Knife School ?

I started out with an angle grinder, some files and sandpaper. Just the basic stuff. Made a couple pretty awful first few knives, but learned along the way through lots of reading, forum searching and Youtube videos. Eventually I upgraded my grinders and tools to better stuff suited for knifemaking. The most important thing though, is one's attention to detail and learning how to heat treat properly. This knife kinda bugs me a bit actually because the tang doesn't quite line up nice and straight with the handle. Then again, this is a first attempt at this kind, so it's a learning process and I already figured out a few new tricks that will help me do better on the next one. They will only get better.

 

[LRB]

I started out with an angle grinder, some files and sandpaper. Just the basic stuff. Made a couple pretty awful first few knives, but learned along the way through lots of reading, forum searching and Youtube videos. Eventually I upgraded my grinders and tools to better stuff suited for knifemaking. The most important thing though, is one's attention to detail and learning how to heat treat properly. This knife kinda bugs me a bit actually because the tang doesn't quite line up nice and straight with the handle. Then again, this is a first attempt at this kind, so it's a learning process and I already figured out a few new tricks that will help me do better on the next one. They will only get better.

A simple way to straighten a blade warp. (After HT and tempering), vise the blade or tang. With a narrow flame torch heat the spine at the apex of the warp/bend, to a blue or even neutral, being careful to not allow color to go to the edge. With plyers or other tool flex the blade or tang a little beyond straight. Pour water on it while holding in position. Most often that will lock it straight. Some designs will not allow this, but it works for those that will.

 

[Red Owl]

Thanks Wick- on the French trade knives- do you know what the average thickness was?
Here's the issue. I suspect the originals had pretty thin blades and they maybe didn't last that long. You see knives with the edge worn way down- maybe from using a file to sharpen them. Now a days, we want heirloom quality so a thicker blade is popular. It is sort of like moccasins, the originals might have had the soles wear out after a short time but who wants to be sewing on new soles every few days so we make things now better than the originals- if that makes sense.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Thanks Wick- on the French trade knives- do you know what the average thickness was?
Here's the issue. I suspect the originals had pretty thin blades and they maybe didn't last that long. You see knives with the edge worn way down- maybe from using a file to sharpen them. Now a days, we want heirloom quality so a thicker blade is popular. It is sort of like moccasins, the originals might have had the soles wear out after a short time but who wants to be sewing on new soles every few days so we make things now better than the originals- if that makes sense.

Look at the drawing of the original...1/8" thick blade...

 

[Runewolf1973]

A simple way to straighten a blade warp. (After HT and tempering), vise the blade or tang. With a narrow flame torch heat the spine at the apex of the warp/bend, to a blue or even neutral, being careful to not allow color to go to the edge. With plyers or other tool flex the blade or tang a little beyond straight. Pour water on it while holding in position. Most often that will lock it straight. Some designs will not allow this, but it works for those that will.

I started edge quenching all my blades and haven't really had an issue with warped blades ever since.

 

[LRB]

Thanks Wick- on the French trade knives- do you know what the average thickness was?
Here's the issue. I suspect the originals had pretty thin blades and they maybe didn't last that long. You see knives with the edge worn way down- maybe from using a file to sharpen them. Now a days, we want heirloom quality so a thicker blade is popular. It is sort of like moccasins, the originals might have had the soles wear out after a short time but who wants to be sewing on new soles every few days so we make things now better than the originals- if that makes sense.

Common scalpers. English about 1/16"average. French about 1/8" average. Both made other knives, and those would likely vary as to size and intended usage.

 

[Red Owl]

Thanks.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I have a question regarding the handles on these. The provided drawing shows the pins were 1" wide. To me that just seems like an awfully thick handle for such a small knife and I think I would find it awkward to hold. So on my knives, should I make them the full 1" wide, or should I just do what feels right, or feels comfortable? Maybe this was just an unusualy thick-handled specimen? I want things to be "correct" but still comfortable.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Oops.

 

[Jaeger]

This is my first attempt at recreating the French boucheron scalping knife. I tried going as historically correct as possible. It is based off of a drawing of an original. The blade is 1084 steel, 6" long and 1/8" thick tapered in both directions with 1/8" pins peened in place. The oversized, octagonal handle is made of Beech. Other than the "aged/darkened" appearance I gave the blade and the wood (which I prefer anyways), I think it is fairly accurate. What do you guys think?

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Very nice work! From what I know about the historically correct style, you nailed it.