French Smoothbore

[makanaut]

I picked up this type c fusil and am wondering if it is historically accurate. Has anyone heard of an original with a 38" barrel? I am considering browning the barrel. Would a more fancy fin have been browned or in the white?

 

[roundball]

I'm not an authority on the subject but anyone can plainly see that stock jus' ain't right...so pull the barrel and send that raggedy lookin' old stock on down here to me and I'll take care of it for you!
:: ::


(pretty wood!)

 

[tg]

Type "c" is just a classification of a style of furniture thought to be used from about 1680-1730 on French guns, the lock on this gun looks way to bananna to be correct( I think it is a modified Jaeger lock) but the pre 1715 French guns did have a bananna type lock but were round untill later then when made flat the bananna style was out... barrels were 43 in. and longer, barrels were polished there are no records of browned barrels on these guns, stocks were plain walnut, the difference between a Fin and Ordinare would be the degree of polishing and possibly some engraving on the furniture and quality of lock and overall finish, the so called type C is not automaticaly a Fin nor is the D particulary an[url] ordinare...in[/url] short this gun is not very PC but on the positive side very few of the French guns offered now are unless one does a lot of homework and ignores 99% of the builders/suppliers hype.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Have to agree with tg here. As for your gun though, I'd just leave it as is and let it age as you use it. It'll take on a character all it's own...that'll make two of you!! :crackup:

 

[robinghewitt]

anyone can plainly see that stock jus' ain't right...

I see it to and it's the figure in the wood that's all wrong.

The lines and marks are supposed to go from end to end, not all vertical like this :crackup:

 

[tg]

One could make a case for it being a circa 1720 gun being use in the 1760's or later which has had the barrel shortened, been restocked and had a Germanic lock installed during the retrofit but retained the original furniture...most orignal French guns have been altered or restocked

 

[makanaut]

Thanks guys. I like this gun except for the 38" barrel. It just looks like it needs to be longer. Was wondering if they were ever made that short. It is a good shooter tho. Not sure if Im gonna keep it. Id really like an iron mounted Tulle. Maybe Ill find a trade.

 

[tg]

If you want a PC Tulle a bit of research would be in order, they are pretty well missrepresnted by most makers also, particulary the type of lock used Bouchards book the "Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691-1741" is a very good book a fair price, it's a paperback that usally sells for around 10 bucks.

 

[makanaut]

Thanks tg. I just found that book on ebay a few weeks ago. Waiting on its delivery. You seem to be the authority on the French guns. So who makes a decent Tulle? Who makes a correct lock?

 

[tg]

I am far from an authority on these guns but have done quite a bit of digging in preperation of my next project... I think The Rifle Shoppe probably has the closest stuff but they are very spendy and have a long wait. you can get parts from TOW to make a gun with a 44" barrel and a Davis lock that is a bit small but clpse and only needs some minor cosmetic modifications to look right, some feel the L&R trade lock is a good one but I see the lockplate as being to flat this, is subject to opinon I based mine on comparing the profiles of as many pics of Tulle locks thatI could find. I don't know of any pre-made gun that is real close, if one accepts the L&R as ok that will give a little more to chose from I suspect, the name "Tulle" in one of its forms should be on the lockplate as this is about the only thing that will identify the gun as comming from that armory(town,When you read the book you have comming you can compare what is out there and the "story" they tell about how theirs is the most correct and get a pretty good idea of which ones know anything about these guns, I plan on useing TOW parts and cleaning up the lock when I get to building my next gun, I think their iron furniture set is circa 1730 if I recall, there were subtle changes in the furniture during the first halh of the 18th century. most of the options available are based on surviving Canadian guns, some gun studentsfeel that the lower Mississippi guns may have been brass mounted for better wear. The Tulle came as a plain gun or as a fine gun the stock shape may have been the extreme "cows foot" or the straiter type reflected by the so called C and D guns. Enjoy the read when your book comes and your gun when you find one.

 

[Rat]

Well dad-burn it, whether that rifle be poop-butt correct or not it sure looks like a fine piece. For a hunting gun the 38" barrel would be a nice compromise between a long winded 42-44" barrel, but nor would it be a short-snorter like my 31" Bess carbine barrel.

Ifin my BP long-gun battery was not complete with the Bess, the 1861 and the .62" Jeager I'd be a askin ifin you wanted to sell that girl by-gumm-it. Sure looks like a nice smoothie.

Rat

 

[tg]

A lot of folks like the shorter barrels, I use 42"& 44' guns and find them not to be a handicap even in the thick stuff and some of the most expensive custom neatlooking fancifull guns around are far from "poop butt correct" some people care some don't, it is an interesting study to be able to tell the difference[url] though...in[/url] the guns not the people...

 

[musketman]

I too like and prefer the longer barreled muzzleloader, But if someone wants a short barreled French smoothbore, that's fine with me too...

After all, "THEY" are the one who will own and shoot it, in other words, get what makes you happy, there is not too many things worse than paying big bucks for something you hate...

 

[Henry]

I agree with the comments of the other emails.

The track of the wolf kit is an honest deal ,
price is OK and delivery time is decent .
Just make the few minor modifications on the lock.

The Rifle Shoppe kit is better but not as
easy to assemble and delivery time is sometime long .

Now , the main problem with most gunmaker is
that they often leave the lock plate as is ( germanic )
and spend to much time on bluing or browning the barrel
wich is not documented , the wood is sometime maple
( wich was not used in the french factories )
and the wood finish is way to elaborate , some have
the "Varathane " look of a bowling alley .

The Tulle gun was to be well made but very simple
the trade guns were of a lower price ( and quality ? )
but could be made with fancy brass butt and side plates .

Fancy brass side plates had been found by the dozen
in the archeological search of the 1740 king's wharehouse
in Qu

 

[tg]

The fancy furniture may have been for special presentation guns to Chiefs or upper class whites, Bouchard shows a rather fancy gun (pg25) from Tulle with what would probably be called D furniture in brass that is said to be a chiefs gun, he also mentions Tulles that are "Fine Guns" one of the guns in Hamiltons book was of the C or D type but had a very fine lock which caused him to surmise it was not a "trade gun" but possibly a gift gun. with so few originals existing that have not been altered and so many variations and options it makes for an interesting study. I recall someone also mentioned that there were records of walnut planking for gun stocks shipped to Canada possibly for repairs or maybe a few builders made guns there?

 

[Rat]

Just thought of something...

On the length of the barrel determining whether a weapon is historically correct or not, I know that many Revolutionary war muskets ended up shorter than they were when new, because of muzzle damage. Often the muzzles wore very thin from the iron ram-rods, and were "dressed down", made shorter. A bit of snow plugging the end of a barrel can burst just the muzzle too.

So, who's to say that such a rifle, with a 38" barrel could not be "correct", if it had been shortened from a 44" weapon due to muzzle damage? It must have been common for such weapons to sustain such damage...

Should every weapon represent exactly how it was, immediately after it left the maker...???

Ha ha just thought I'd throw that in.

rat

 

[Donny]

:hmm: I often wondered how barrel shortning would show. would the thimbles tell the tale? The middle thimble would be closer to the front than the lower thimble, if 3"-4 " cut off.?? If just an 1/2 in was cut of, could we tell??

 

[tg]

This is true to a point but a 38" barrel of todays making would likely be different in dimension than an original 44" one that has been cut down as would the repective positions of pins and ferruls, the stock would also be thicker at the end after being cut back,one can often make up a story to validate non PC stuff as I mentioned above but there are some considerations such as I just mentioned to make it wash so to speak, in other words an original with a cut back barrel would look different than a replica made with a 38" barrel unless it was made to appear to have been cut back.

 

[Henry]

Yes , there are mentions of french walnut sent from
France to Canada for repairs , there is also two mentions
of maple sent from Canada to France , in the mid 1600
( it was decided that it was not worth the trouble )
and around 1720 when a record cold spell destroyed many walnut orchards in France.

There are no record of genuine gun making in New France
only repairs .

I was always puzzled by the position of the front
( and normally , the only ) sight on Tulle guns ,
almost 4 inches from the muzzle . Maybe cutting back
the muzzle was a normal thing at the time ?

 

[tg]

There are some French guns shown in Lenks book 1680-1740 ish tha also have the front sight set way back...maye be just a French thing of the time, many of these have rear sights as are thought some of the early so called type C guns have I suspect that some guns from Tulle were so equiped but with so few surviving there is no evidence but French guns from many time periods and places of origin do have them in the "butterfly" form,I hope to make a Tulle gun in the future and plan on setting the front sight as the originals show and making my own rear sight as per examples from Lenk and Hamilton, I have always wondered if some of the furniture and parts Hamilton found may have come from the Tulle Armory. Bouchard mentions Tulle guns that were "Fin" with brass or silver mountings, without a lockplate or barrel with the "Tulle" mark it might be a possibility a gun could have been from that town and we would never know it, some of the C and D furniture may have come from these "fusil fin de chase et de service" it appears that not all were plain Jane iron mounted guns as represented by the Canadian collections???? The gun on pg 25 of Bouchards book tends to support this.