Frizzen Pan Tempering

[hawkenman]

I posted this same subject several years ago but never got around to addressing the issue. I have a flint lock that was handed down through four generations. The lock is marked as "Warrented" and back in the early eighties I killed several deer and hogs with it. Well back then I thought the frizzen pan was not sparking enough. I took it to a "so called gunsmith" who said he could re-harden it. Well he really messed it up and now it will not even spark. Any suggestions to where I can send the lock to have the frizzen re-tempered?

 

[matt denison]

I posted this same subject several years ago but never got around to addressing the issue. I have a flint lock that was handed down through four generations. The lock is marked as "Warrented" and back in the early eighties I killed several deer and hogs with it. Well back then I thought the frizzen pan was not sparking enough. I took it to a "so called gunsmith" who said he could re-harden it. Well he really messed it up and now it will not even spark. Any suggestions to where I can send the lock to have the frizzen re-tempered?

First, let's straighten out some of your terminology. It is the frizzen that needs work, not the pan. The pan is the concave protrusion that holds the flash powder. You harden or reharden the frizzen, not retemper. Hardening does just that, making the metal of the frizzen hard. Tempering is the process of relieving or slightly softening the metal using the right amount of heat for a specific duration - not too much, not too little. Hardening and tempering has been discussed on here a hundred times using 100 different techniques.

It's too bad that your "so called gunsmith" didn't get it right when he had the chance.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Any suggestions to where I can send the lock to have the frizzen re-tempered?

Lots of gun parts are labeled "warrantied". Means nothing. Might be high grade or El Cheapo import.
I suggest you post the question in the workshops area and ask how to reharden a frizzen.
It can be done at home and not particularly difficult. (or, more better, do a search first, has been discussed several times here)

 

[chichi]

I believe the consensus advice it approx as follows:
Heat the frizzen with a torch until a magnet wont stick (red color when seen in a shaded area-not in bright light)) and quench in oil. Check if it improved. If no sparks, quench in water . Put in an oven and heat to 350 to 400 to soften a little because water may cause some brittleness.Wear safety glasses in case it is too hard when you test it.

 

[LRB]

I believe the consensus advice it approx as follows:
Heat the frizzen with a torch until a magnet wont stick (red color when seen in a shaded area-not in bright light)) and quench in oil. Check if it improved. If no sparks, quench in water . Put in an oven and heat to 350 to 400 to soften a little because water may cause some brittleness.Wear safety glasses in case it is too hard when you test it.

That's close, but non-magnetic is a tad cool, and a water quench could crack your frizzen. Heat to one to two shades of red over non-magnetic, and quench in warmed thin oil such as ATF, or canola oil. I would recommend the canola. Temper around 375°, give or take a tad, for an hour, but use a separate oven thermometer. Kitchen ranges are notorious for giving inaccurate temps. Having the part covered in clean dry sand will give it a more even temp as the oven cycles it's heat.

 

[Comrade Coffin]

Good day gentlemen, I would like to sling my twopenneth-worth into this one. It is entirely possible that the cherry-red & quench method may work, but this is highly dependant on the metallurgy of the frizzen. If the original piece was a standad grade carbon steel that was case hardened using a compound (such as barium carbide), then this carbon enriched 'case' has probably worn away with use and you can heat and quench it the flames of hell and it will still not spark. Try adding a commercially available compound such as Kasenit to the process. It won't hurt. Higher grade steels may respond to the above methods though. Using an oven (small industrial kiln) to control the temperature is also a better way to control the process rather than a visual approach.

Heat treatment of metals is a bit of a black art, but it will be fun to have a go.

Alternativley consider buying a new lock/frizzen. Many modern frizzens are made from high carbon steels that are subsequently nitram or vacuum hradened to be 'tough and sparky' all the way through.

 

[Rifleman1776]

As taught to me by a master gun builder: Hold the frizzen at the end with needle nosed pliers (Vise Grip type free up your hands and I put the pliers in an outside vise), place a container of water about one or two feet under the frizzen, coat the frizzen face with oil, any kind, on top of that coat with Kasenite, heat from the back with a torch until orange (working on a gloomy day helps), when the full frizzen is that color quickly release the frizzen and let drop into the water. When it hits the water you should hear a loud "Pow". If you hear it you are nearly done. Take out, clean up and use. Works for me.

 

[LRB]

Kasenit would only penetrate .002 maybe .003 thousandths in what you describe. It would very soon wear away. If you have gotten lasting results with that method, you did not really need the Kasenit. The steel was high carbon to begin with.

 

[Dphar]

I posted this same subject several years ago but never got around to addressing the issue. I have a flint lock that was handed down through four generations. The lock is marked as "Warrented" and back in the early eighties I killed several deer and hogs with it. Well back then I thought the frizzen pan was not sparking enough. I took it to a "so called gunsmith" who said he could re-harden it. Well he really messed it up and now it will not even spark. Any suggestions to where I can send the lock to have the frizzen re-tempered?

A photo of the lock would be very helpful.
If its mild steel it needs to be professionally casehardened to .005-.008 depth or faced with high carbon steel.
But giving ML parts to a modern gunsmith is usually a mistake. Many ML gunsmiths are lacking as well.
But people that are really good often charge for the knowledge.
Like I said a photo of the lock and the rifle would be a help in giving advice.

Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

Kasenit would only penetrate .002 maybe .003 thousandths in what you describe. It would very soon wear away. If you have gotten lasting results with that method, you did not really need the Kasenit. The steel was high carbon to begin with.

Can't debate with you on that. I'm metallurigical knowledge deficient. It is what I was told to do, I did it and it works. FWIW, one was off of a Navy Arms (Pedersoli) Brown Bess. Took 30 years to wear through the original hardening.

 

Two reasons it won't spark, too hard, or too soft. Before you do anything, I would try running a file across the face. If it digs, and cuts it's too soft, and if it skips off without cutting it's too hard, and may be easily fixed by annealing, which is as Wick described, 375 degree oven for two hours at temp, then turn the oven off and let cool. Then retry in the lock. I also agree with Wick, that quenching in water is iffy, and can lead to cracks and breaking. Steels used in frizzen castings are oil quench. The Rifle Shoppe has a tutorial on hardening Frizzens in their on line catalog somewhere.

Bill

 

[LRB]

The Rifle Shoppe recommends a water quench for their frizzens and springs, both of which are 6150 steel. All other parts are 4140. I disagree with them, but if they were getting complaints, one would think they would make some changes. :idunno:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I agree with Wick, and the problem is one often doesn't quite know what steel one has. IF it turns out to be a poorly heat treated piece of quality steel, dropping it into water can seriously damage the item. :shocked2: You can also have an old lock, with a newer frizzen of a different steel than when it was first made, which may suprize you. You can have a new lock with different steel than the older locks with which you have experience though from the same respected company, and the company hasn't mentioned they changed steel.

There are several videos on YouTube that show folks taking Pedersoli frizzens, wrapping them in leather, placing them in steel cans that once held canned peaches (or some such), crimping the opening closed, and dropping said assembly into a campfire. When the smoke from the burning leather ceases, the assembly is then removed frm the fire with tongs, and dropped into water. Supposedly the leather "adds" carbon to the steel. :td: In fact they are simply tempering the frizzen in a very crude manner.

I have treated Pedersoli frizzens for both softness and being too hard. Two hard once..., two soft three times. The too hard was easy, simply baked in the oven as above, though I did it at 400 degrees. For the too soft, the first time I did use Kasenit and a forge, then quenched in Canola oil, then baked in a dutch oven. (It was at an event, and the fellow didn't want to wait and have it done in a more controlled setting.) I only did the Kasenit to be "sure" as I thought the steel was probably good, just not properly heat treated. I have the impression that recently this has become more of a problem with the Pedersoli frizzens. Since then the other two I simply used the forge, canola, and a real oven.

I confess that I do need to get a proper thermometer for the oven..., mea culpa.

Another option is to have a piece of spring steel added to the face of the frizzen, especially if the frizzen itself is wearing thin.

I will continue to use the method above as Wick has mentioned..., I think it's safer in avoiding an odd frizzen and cracking if not shattering one.

LD

 

[Rod Lassey]

"Any suggestions to where I can send the lock to have the frizzen re-tempered?"

There are any number of good gunsmiths familiar with lock work---here's one that advertises reworking locks:

http://cabincreek.net/

If you are trying this yourself, there's been plenty of good advise offered. Be aware that if your frizzen isn't higher carbon steel to begin with, it'll never spark decently no matter how much heating, quenching, and tempering. In that case, soling the frizzen is an option. This involves either soldering or brazing a piece of high carbon steel to to face of the frizzen. In my opinion, this would be better than case hardening (baking carbon into the face), as it'll be far thicker. It would take alot of shots to wear through a refaced frizzen.

Rod

 

[Rifleman1776]

Two reasons it won't spark, too hard, or too soft. Before you do anything, I would try running a file across the face. If it digs, and cuts it's too soft, and if it skips off without cutting it's too hard, and may be easily fixed by annealing, which is as Wick described, 375 degree oven for two hours at temp, then turn the oven off and let cool. Then retry in the lock. I also agree with Wick, that quenching in water is iffy, and can lead to cracks and breaking. Steels used in frizzen castings are oil quench. The Rifle Shoppe has a tutorial on hardening Frizzens in their on line catalog somewhere.

Bill

Bill, with regards to the BB frizzen, after 30 years of use the frizzen face defnitely wore through to soft metal. The method I described worked to reharden and now I have a sparker again.
I have no knowledge of water or oil quenching. I may have done it wrong but it worked. :idunno:

 

[LRB]

If it worked for you, whatever you did cannot be dismissed.
As for tempered hardness on a frizzen, I find it is good to start at a 375° temper, because if you find it too hard, you can re-temper with a higher temp. If it comes out too soft, you have start over and re-harden