Frzzen rebound

[M. De Land]

I had an idea on this subject I wanted to kick around with you all to get some counter though working for us so please jump right in and give your thinking.
What I was thinking was that the tops of the frizzens that are never contacted by the flint could be lowered and reshaped to reduce the counter weight effect of the overhanging metal inertia that depresses the frizzen spring at the end of the stroke and rebounds.
Press on the top of your open frizzen and you will see what I mean.
This along with balancing the power of both the main and frizzen spring should minimize any rebound present. Mike D.

 

[Zonie]

It's a thought. :hmm:

Another thought about the same material out at the tip of the frizzen is, would removing that material reduce the inertia of the frizzen so that rather than causing the flint to get a good bite on the frizzen face, the frizzen would just be knocked out of the way by the flint reducing the sparks created? :hmm:

:grin:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Have to agree with Zonie here...reducing the weight of the frizzen, by whatever means, will require reducing the spring used with it. You'll either get the effect Zonie mentioned or the frizzen will hit hard enough to fly back and possible shatter the flint, now in it's way. You did mention adjusting the spring and this would have to be done in either case to adjustments to the weight of the frizzen or smoothening it's travel. All part of the great game of getting them just right! :wink: :haha:

 

[pargent]

+1 with Zonie and I will add that the rebound is most likely an end result of too light of a feather spring , that once open the geometry of the hammer and weight of the spring should hold the hammer in place and there should be no rebound at all .

 

[M. De Land]

Good thinking zonie, had not considered that aspect and is the reason I wanted the discussion.
Chewing on it a bit I don't think the sparks start any way until the frizzen is in motion back the other way against increasing spring tension until the foot cams over the apex of the spring contact and starts toward it's stop at the heal.
After cam over the spring apex the spring is now in recovery and is powering the frizzen with it's inertia until the heel stop causes the rebound.
Seems like a weight reduction up top side would be only beneficial.
Actually I see no hurt in rebound if it doesn't result in metal fatigue and eventual breakage.

 

[Vaino]

Read somewhere that the main duty of a frizzen spring is to keep the frizzen on the pan.....so, lightened up the frizzen spring to a point where the frizzen rebounded. So....there's more than just one job that the frizzen spring has to do.

The first Chambers' Siler I bought gave the immediate impression that the frizzen spring was way too strong....until I shot it. The lock performed flawlessly. The main springs on Chambers' locks are also very strong, but evidently are "mated" to the frizzen spring for optimum performance.

Was it Pletch who said that in his testing, the frizzens on all the locks he tested rebounded to some degree? It's when the frizzen rebounds enough to land on the flint that's objectionable......Fred

 

[Rifleman1776]

Read somewhere that the main duty of a frizzen spring is to keep the frizzen on the pan

Yep, and I read 'somewhere' that was really the only duty of the frizzen spring. I know I have seen vids of flints shooting with no spring at all on the frizzen. Worked fine except lack of spring on the cam action allowed the frizzen to bounce back. So :hmm: maybe it wasn't the only duty.

 

[Col. Batguano]

You would lose some strength in the frizzen metal too, as the contacted area would be more prone to bending if that was the very edge of the frizzen. Think about how cannons of the day had reinforcing metal (the muzzle swell) there to keep them from expanding. I'm not sure if a frizzen would need reinforcement though. It seems to me that the exerted force (in psi) by a flint edge is pretty tame compared to muzzle pressures.

 

[M. De Land]

Typically the flint does not engage the frizzen until at least a third of the way down from the top making everything above all show and no go! :grin:
In looking at mine there might not be enough weight above the strike line to make much difference in rebound effect on this particular frizzen.
Just kicking ideas around to possibly enhance lock preformance and it might well be a solution in search of a problem! Mike D.

 

[bpd303]

I think it would look odd to grind away material at the top of the frizzen. The only lock I had that had frizzen rebound had a very light feather spring that someone had ground on. Replaced it problem solved.

 

[Curt]

I would think twice about cutting a frizzen down.as it might be a little tricky opening it with nothing to get a grip onto.That extra steal is not on there just to look at .A stiff spring will not keep a frizzen from reboundin either.JMHO Curt

 

[Col. Batguano]

Approaching it from another angle; These locks have had pretty much the same shape and design based upon efficiency for about 200 years, until superceded by the cap lock. In all that time, they didn't change much. Some of their features were designed out of style, but most came out of efficiency, or durability, (such as the shape of the ****). Style tends to follow what works best.

You MIGHT gain a couple of thousanths here and there by doing the kind of thing the "race gun" boys do in competitive CF shooting (hollowing out the **** lever, cutting down the frizzen, electronic trigger, etc.), but at the end of the day, a flintlock is by nature a very inefficient lock / ignition system when compared to modern technology. And what you gain in efficiency by doing all that will more than be lost by what you give up in aesthetics. And let's face it, (apart from certain states' hunting seasons of flint only) if we shoot flinters, aesthetics and historical accuracy are a big part of the attraction to the class in the first place. It's kind of like showing up at a ML shoot wearing precision shooting clothing. Yeah, it may not be addressed in the rules for the event, but it's just "not done".

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Frizzen rebounding is common to practically all flintlocks. We have over 80 slow motion videos of flintlocks showing how common this is. The amount of rebound varies with different locks, but a lock that does not rebound is rare. Some obviously rebound often and hard enough to impact the flint. The vast majority are in between.

In a number of the videos the pan ignites just about the time the frizzen returns. In one case a lock with NO frizzen spring rebounded gently, coming to to rest above the pan. With tongue in cheek, Jim Chambers said he worked hours to get it to do that.

Below is a link to the list of slow motion videos on my web site:

Slow Motion Link

Regards,
Pletch

 

[bpd303]

What I consider rebound is when the frizzen over centers and hits the flint. I know that all frizzen's rebound to some extent which for me is not a problem.

 

[M. De Land]

I just bought 2 lbs of Null-B and am anxious to try it against the 4F Kix I have been using.
In some of those slo-mo videos the **** is almost stopped in it's travel before it finally pushes the frizzen open. See something new every time I view them. Mike D.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I just bought 2 lbs of Null-B and am anxious to try it against the 4F Kix I have been using.
In some of those slo-mo videos the **** is almost stopped in it's travel before it finally pushes the frizzen open. See something new every time I view them. Mike D.

Mike,
You're right about the "something new". I'm amazed at the new stuff we learn. BTW, the most unusual thing I've seen was when viewing frame by frame. I was counting frames as a way of timing the ignition, when we noticed that the last two frames of flint movement was "backing up." The **** had stopped on the lock plate but the flint edge kept on going for two more frames - and then backed up to "battery". The **** neck had flexed after the **** hit the side plate. In most locks this lasted two frames. The only ones that didn't do this were military locks or ones that were double-throated.

Here's something about frizzen rebound to think about:
Does a weak spring cause rebounds because the spring fails to stop the frizzen?
Or-- does a strong spring load up and start the frizzen back with added momentum?

And last one must remember that when the flint edge looks like its almost stopped, you are looking at it 167 times slower than normal speed. It isn't stopping. But, it is slowing as it travels down the frizzen. But---even that is not always true. I have timed locks in which the main spring seems to feel like a compound bow breaking over. Some of these locks are traveling faster in the bottom half of the scrape than in the top half. The change in leverage the main spring has can do neat things. My gut says that every lock has its own unique characteristics that affect its performance. I believe this is true even in locks of the same style and maker.

Regards,
Pletch

Hey Mike, I was in Anchorage just last week. We had a really neat time on a vacation.

 

[M. De Land]

Wow, you should have looked me up I was in town working at my home. I have a small glass business out of my home.
Been doing it for 45 years now and the gun stuff is my hobby.
Where all did you visit while here?

 

[EC121]

If you are concerned about rebound, it is possible to stone a small flat on the foot of the frizzen where it comes to rest on the spring. I have done it to stop the "boing" feeling(bouncing) when the frizzen comes to rest. Just determine the spot where the spring and foot stop in the open position and make a couple of passes with a stone. This puts a small flat spot to catch the frizzen and hold it open. Going over the angle will also let the frizzen snap open after it clears the flint. If you have a soft spring you can put it on the other side to create a bit more force to hold the frizzen closed.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Force = Mass X Velocity

So if you have a light frizzen moving fast, or a heavy frizzen moving slower you will get the same number. That number will be stored up in the frizzen spring.

The reason you see the flint continuing to move I suspect is because of flex in the ****, which is designed in due to the serpentine shape. Airplane wings are designed to flex too. It keeps them from transferring all the shock to the joined areas, and having things come apart.

 

[MJMarkey]

I'm building a rifle right now and the lock has/had a little rebound. The first one of this kind I've seen with that problem. When I build I place a wooden "fake flint" in the jaws to avoid wearing the frizzen. After some experimenting I found changing the shape of the wooden flint stopped the rebound. Go Figure.

Normally it's an imbalance between the main and feather spring and can be hard to fix. An easy fix is to extend the top of the jaw leather to beyond where the frizzen strikes the top of the flint to act as a cushion.
Works good no more broken flints.