Fusil stock vs modern stock

[biliff]

Thinking of getting a fusil, primarily for wingshooting but am a little concerned about stock fit. I've got 25+ years of modern shotgunning under my belt (competition and hunting) and after looking at the stocks on some of these things (haven't actually cheeked any yet) I'm wondering if I'd have to change shooting styles rather drastically. Modern shotguns are set up for a very weight forward, head down, aggressive lean into the gun style. The further back in time you go, the stock style seems to change to more drop, resulting in a much more head up, loose cheek fit, erect posture kind of shooting style. I have an original percussion double that I couldn't possibly shoot with my current style 'cause I can't see over the breech with my cheek on the stock.

Is this going to be even worse with a fusil style flintlock? Anybody have any problems making the transition? Yeah, I know you can have a stock made to any dimensions you want, but that would tend to ruin the lines of the gun.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Bill: You have a real dilemna, there. I started changing my stock mounting position years ago, to be more heads up. I lengthened the stock, and then put some down pitch on it, and some Cast-on( I am LHed) so that by the time I finally bought a BP Fowler, and it was fitted to me properly, I was comfortable with pointing a gun with my head up and face square to the point. I am looking through the center of the lenses of my glasses, and not out the top, or over the top, as I was when I started.

I found that I am less likely to beat my cheekbone to death shooting with my head up, and by not crawling the stock, I keep my eyes looking through the center of the sockets, and not out from under my eyebrows.

Have a good stockmaker fit a shotgun stock for you, and try it out on one of your existing guns. Once you have a gunstock that actually fits you, rather than making do with whatever you get from a factory, you will wonder why you took so long to make the change.

By way of example, I was approached by a woman who had opened a Hunting Preserve, and who complained that her Winchester 20 ga. shotgun was beating her to death. She is very short, and small framed, and she showed me a deep bruise on her shoulder where the toe of the stock was digging into her pectoral muscles. I sent her to a stockfitter I knew who lived about 6 miles from her. He shortened her stock to 12 1/2 inches LOP, and then took off about 1/2 inch of the toe to give her more down pitch. He fitted the gun with a recoil pad, and told her to shoot it, and after a few months, come back and let him see how it fit her. Well, she began to hit every bird she pointed. And, she was very grateful to me because her shoulder was no longer bruised, even after firing several hundred rounds of trap, skeet, or Sporting clays. I got a chance to see her shoot, and her head was noticeably higher, and further back, and on the side of the stock, and not on top of the comb, laying on its side. She was no longer canting the gun when she swung on the bird. And, its was very clear that the full buttplate( recoil pad) was in contact with her shoulder and not just the bottom couple of inches. I think she could have done even better with a bit lower comb, and drop at heel, but she was so happy with her gun, there was no reason to bother with suggesting such a change.

 

[biliff]

My go to gun has a Jack West adjustable stock on it. I cut the LOP to 13 1/2" and set the comb up for 1 1/2" of drop and 1/8" cast off. It has a parallel comb so I it just slides past your cheek instead of rapping you upside the head. Been shooting it that way for years. I just don't want to pick up a fusil and have to start all over again because the stock is such a radical departure from what I'm used to. It's kind of hard to undo muscle memory that's been several hundred thousand practice rounds in the making. I can pick up most any modern shotgun and shoot it pretty well. Guess I will have to see if someone will let me borrow one at a rondy and shoot it a few times to see how much adjustment is necessary.

Had a lady in a similiar situation as yours come to me for help once. Took her over to the skeet range just to see her shoot one from low 7. She closed her eyes, turned her head, pulled the gun off her shoulder and pulled the trigger. Worst flinch I ever saw. Turned out hubby had her fire a couple hundred field loads (thru a nice light weight browning field gun with a steel buttplate) the day before. She had a bruise over most of her upper arm and shoulder. Sent her home to heal up for a couple weeks before we started retraining with a different gun and much lighter loads. Some people seem to think shooting is supposed to hurt.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Thinking of getting a fusil, primarily for wingshooting but am a little concerned about stock fit. I've got 25+ years of modern shotgunning under my belt (competition and hunting) and after looking at the stocks on some of these things (haven't actually cheeked any yet) I'm wondering if I'd have to change shooting styles rather drastically. Modern shotguns are set up for a very weight forward, head down, aggressive lean into the gun style. The further back in time you go, the stock style seems to change to more drop, resulting in a much more head up, loose cheek fit, erect posture kind of shooting style. I have an original percussion double that I couldn't possibly shoot with my current style 'cause I can't see over the breech with my cheek on the stock.

Is this going to be even worse with a fusil style flintlock? Anybody have any problems making the transition? Yeah, I know you can have a stock made to any dimensions you want, but that would tend to ruin the lines of the gun.

Yes it will be even worse. The bigger difference you get from drop at comb to drop at heel, the more felt recoil there is.
Man this seems like the same questions I was asking myself before I ordered a custom fowler. I am a sporting clays shooter and I dont believe in completely forsaking gun fit for lines and architecture on a shotgun that will be used. Those old guns have stocks that dont fit most because stock fitting did not really catch on til the mid 1800's. A "good" gunfitter is few a far between. I like Bob James and The Country Gentelman Gunfitters. They wont set you up like a trap shooter if you shoot clays. Anyone wanting to lean more can get a book compiled by Rollin Oswald on gunfitting. It is a good resource if one cant get to a gunfitter. [url] http://www.stockfitting.com/[/url]

Of course being fitted for a gun is worthless if one does not know how to properly and consistantly mount one. I take a 15" pull on my Beretta competition gun so I am ordering an English fowler now with about 1/4" less pull for heavy clothing and using the same drops at comb and heel of the gun I can shoot with. With you background of clays, I would not get a gun that fit so poorly and try to wing shoot with it. You would be disappointed in your performance.
JMHO

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Paul, who is your gunfitter?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Craig Witte, of Fairmont, Illinois built the fowlers for both my brother and me. Criag has been building ML rifles and shotguns since his teen, and does a nice job. I don't think he usually starts with a pre-carved stock blank for the shotguns or fowlers, and prefers to start from a true blank. That way he can make the adjustments for the shooter.

My brother and I measured several guns we had, and shot well, to come up with some dimensions we thought would work. Then we took them to Craig, and he had us mount a gun to our shoulders to see how we did it. I went back for a final fitting on LOP after he had taken most of the wood off the stock, and I believe he decided to take a bit more wood off the comb, as well as do more downpitch.

The result: I can close my eyes, mount the gun to my face, open my eyes and be looking down the barrel over the sights. I can point the gun at a target, close my eyes hold the gun on the imagined target and count 10 seconds, and open my eyes, and still find my front sight on or near the target. ( This test also is used to adjust your stance. You first have to get a good stance, before testing the quality of the stock fitting work with it.)I like the fact that I am looking down the center of the barrel every time I mount the gun to my shoulder, and cheek.

I have had stock fitting done by two other men, both of whom have passed on. One did work on a Winchester Model 94, .30-30 that was beating me to death, and the other did work on two 12 gauge shotguns, one a Winchester, and the other a Remington 870. He was the same man I sent the lady to with her 20 ga. shotgun to be fitted. We lost him to cancer a few years ago. He was very good at fitting shotgun stocks. He didn't do a lot of rifle shooting, so did not claim to be able to do much with rifle stocks. But with shotguns, he was the nuts. Craig does general gunsmithing work in addition to his gunbuilding of MLers.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Bill: I would stay away from the precarved stocks, and find a builder who will work your stock up from a blank. It will cost more, but if you already have your dimensions worked out, it would be nuts to have a new gun built to some other measurments.

I shot a lot of Trap, just because that is the clay target sport most commonly shot here where I live. I have to drive 60 miles to get to the nearest Sporting clays range. There is one club that has both trap and skeet fields, and I use them both as a warm up before hitting the sporting clays course. Nobody has a wabble trap anymore, and I always considered them the best training aid for shooting moving targets around. And, sadly, our club with its doubles trap machine closed with the death of the owners. Shooting doubles is the best way I know to pull singles shooters out of slumps.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

You first have to get a good stance, before testing the quality of the stock fitting work with it.)I like the fact that I am looking down the center of the barrel every time I mount the gun to my shoulder, and cheek.

Yep, stance first. There are several schools of thought there but they must be "nose over toes".
I am fortunate that I dont have to crank my head to one side to get over the center of the barrel like many do on stock factory guns. I ALWAYS have to put on the moleskin to raise the comb drop though.

 

[Mike Brooks]

You guys are making me want to get back out on the skeet fields again! I never could shoot old American made cartridge guns worth a damn. (I'm talking turn of the century damascus cartridge guns) Way to much drop on those old dog legged guns. I could occasionally find a higher grade LC Smith that was custom stocked that would fit well. That and many of the english guns fit well. I sold all of those doubles years ago, kept just one english gun by John Venables & Son. Under lever that started out life as a pinfire and was converted to centerfire. Sweet little gun with no choke, perfect for skeet. My only other bird gun is an english Dbl. 18 bore flint gun that fits real well. Ah...those were the days... Lived only 5 minutes from the sporting clays range....:yakyak:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Bakeoven Bill,

Mike Brooks is your man for a fowling gun made to your specs. Not much difference in price in him building from a Chambers kit or from a blank to your specs. PLUS he has a shotgunning background to boot.