fusils on the plains

[tenngun]

Its superbowl sunday and I dont watch football,so I thought I'd stir a pot :stir: Did American Mt Men 1810-1840 carry smooth bores?Keep in mind one rule, if you like somthing you will most likly find an argument for it.Of couse we know Indians and Canadians reached for fusils while Americans reach for rifles.Its my idea that they carried fusils as back up, night gaurd duty,sawed off for running buffs, and like Glass or Coulter when thier rifles lost or broken.One other thing is the nearsighted men were as common as the nearsighted today,glasses we'nt.Shooting a brown blob at 50 yards with a rifle or fusil is about the same. ff By the by I blow down my bores "tween shots :rotf:

 

[vthunter52]

It is quite possible that at one time or another the mtn. man of this period most likely carried some type of fusils.
They all at one time moved out of the Eastern forests, reached the Mississippi R., and ascended the Missouri, and some would have carried their long rifles, and some the military muskets that they acquired in militia service. They soon learned that they needed something better suited for the longer ranges, and larger game that they experienced and quickly found a larger caliber firearm. But I can also see them hanging on to the extra firearms as either trade or backup weapons. Packing with horses and mules they had the luxury of travelling with a second or more loaded weapon, ready when needed.

 

[Many Klatch]

Fusils were the preferred gun for killing buffalo while riding a horse. They wanted a loose fitting ball, no patch. Powder was carried loose in a coat pocket. Powder was scooped out in the palm, dumped in the barrel. The ball was spit out into the barrel and and then the fusil was thumped onto the saddle horn to seat the ball. The gun had to be shot soon while the spit was holding the ball in place. All this done while the horse was at full gallop.

So yeah, they did shoot fusils.

Many Klatch

 

[Rod Lassey]

While Anglo trappers and transplanted eastern Indians did prefer their rifles, there's plenty of references to using NW guns at times. Warren Ferris was issued one while working for the AFC, at one point Osborne Russel infers that he has one, and Kurz points out that rifles were useless for running buffalo---just to name three.

Rod

 

[asbrown]

:2 wasn't the so called "blanket gun" generally a cut down fusil or NWTG, used for a coup-de-grace, or to pump a load of shot into a group of attackers once the rifle was empty? :idunno:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have a theory on that issue. But whenever I say it I get slapped down because I cannot provide a "link" to my theory. :shocked2:
Neverthless, my theory is: Many, if not all, of these mtn. men were poor. I believe they took with them whatever they could from back home in the east. Some would have been small caliber rifles but, being post Rev. war there would have been many left over Brown Besses, Charlyvilles, fowlers, etc. Many were probably cut down. Of course, those who signed on with fur trade companies might have been issued rifles. But that does not preclude others who took what they had or could afford. Myself at that time, being poor and going into the wilderness would have chosen a shortened 'Bess or a fowler instead of going unarmed just for the sake of being 'authentic'. :wink:

 

[hanshi]

I won't "slap you down" because I'd imagine they'd just pick up the best gun they could get or afford be it smooth or rifled. Maybe we'll get slapped down together.

 

[Tinker2]

I live on the plains.
I live about 4 miles from the old Ft Pierre Chouteau. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Pierre_Chouteau
And where in 1743, Louis Verendrye and his brother planted a lead plate on a hillside overlooking Fort Pierre claiming the land for Louis XV,
King of France. So we see some old guns on occasion.
Most of the old gun around here, that I see are 30 inch smooth bore or shorter.
I hope that helps.


William Alexander

 

[Matt85]

Fusils were the preferred gun for killing buffalo while riding a horse. They wanted a loose fitting ball, no patch. Powder was carried loose in a coat pocket. Powder was scooped out in the palm, dumped in the barrel. The ball was spit out into the barrel and and then the fusil was thumped onto the saddle horn to seat the ball. The gun had to be shot soon while the spit was holding the ball in place. All this done while the horse was at full gallop.

So yeah, they did shoot fusils.

Many Klatch

i have trouble believing this.

i have ridden a horse or two in my short life and can tell you that if you had a smoothbore with nothing over the ball that the ball would come off the powder instantly at a full gallop. your fusil would be rendered useless pretty fast if you tried the above qoute.

-matt

 

[pargent]

Logic does indeed dictate that you are correct. Just because something has not been dug up does not mean that it wasn't used,these guns were just used to death,the HBC still listed flint smoothbores fore sale in 1890 remaining stock sent home for conversion , their records showw that it was 50/50 purchase rate between whites and natives. Some guns that have turned up have been remanufactured from musket parts dating back to the F&I peroid . What was the income for a family heading west , they were going to need more than one gun , what was the cost of the latest flint rifle .( Ok in to-days terms you are heading west for a new life ,you can take a couple of old milita muskets , a good second hand fowler, or pay a years income at least for one rifle ) :thumbsup:

 

[nkbj]

OK, my 2 cents.
Have long suspected that many wanted a smaller diameter smoothbore with sights because it would throw a dependable pattern or ball but that's not what the stock on hand was nor what manufacturers perceived the market to be.

 

[Dphar]

Fusils were the preferred gun for killing buffalo while riding a horse. They wanted a loose fitting ball, no patch. Powder was carried loose in a coat pocket. Powder was scooped out in the palm, dumped in the barrel. The ball was spit out into the barrel and and then the fusil was thumped onto the saddle horn to seat the ball. The gun had to be shot soon while the spit was holding the ball in place. All this done while the horse was at full gallop.

So yeah, they did shoot fusils.

Many Klatch

i have trouble believing this.

i have ridden a horse or two in my short life and can tell you that if you had a smoothbore with nothing over the ball that the ball would come off the powder instantly at a full gallop. your fusil would be rendered useless pretty fast if you tried the above qoute.

-matt

It is well documented and the warning about burst guns is part of that. The gun was swung down and fired in one motion I suspect.
The powder being carried in a pocket or bag is the way loading is described by Selous in Africa where the bearer carried the powder in a bag and put it in his 4 bore smooth bores by the handful when hunting elephant. This was circa 1870.

By the late 1840s the Colt Dragoon was popular for this. I have always thought that the pair of 65 caliber Hawken pistols were meant for this purpose.

Dan

 

[Many Klatch]

They were interested in making meat. They shot the buffalo from 3 to 5 feet without aiming. Then they reloaded and shot another one. Some they killed some they didn't.

Forget the safety hazard of a gun blowing up. How about a pocket full of powder while shooting with a flintlock? :shocked2: Hope that pocket flap stays down in the wind. If the pocket full did blow up and knock the rider off his horse, the rest of the buffalo herd following would run right over the smoking remains.

Many Klatch

 

[tenngun]

one other comment on this thread is that we must remeber that most of the mt men had not seen thier 25th birthday.I remember doing things at early 20 somthing that should have killed me but didn't because my angel was watching out for me.I guess we remember Bridger,Meek,Walker et cetera just because stupid didn't kill them afore they got smart :hmm:

 

[Rod Lassey]

Rudoph Kurz, working at Ft. Union in 1851-52 gives one of the better descriptions of shooting buffalo with a NW gun from horseback---he talks of the pocket or bag of powder, balls in the mouth (by the way, don't spit them down the barrel, you'll lose your front teeth--he says to take the ball from your mouth and put it down the barrel), large self-priming touch holes, and firing as soon as the barrel comes down.

He also mentions that hand and facial injuries from burst barrels were not uncommon. :shocked2:
http://www.amazon.com/Upper-Missouri-Journal-Friederich-1851-1852/dp/0806136553


Rod

 

[Dphar]

Logic does indeed dictate that you are correct. Just because something has not been dug up does not mean that it wasn't used,these guns were just used to death,the HBC still listed flint smoothbores fore sale in 1890 remaining stock sent home for conversion , their records showw that it was 50/50 purchase rate between whites and natives. Some guns that have turned up have been remanufactured from musket parts dating back to the F&I peroid . What was the income for a family heading west , they were going to need more than one gun , what was the cost of the latest flint rifle .( Ok in to-days terms you are heading west for a new life ,you can take a couple of old milita muskets , a good second hand fowler, or pay a years income at least for one rifle ) :thumbsup:

The American frontiersmen and the western trappers were not natives in Canada.
The smoothbore is nearly useless for general use on the prairies of the west. The Musket especially so. It is a special purpose arm as all smoothbores are and the musket only excels in linear tactics on the battle field when used against other troops also constrained by linear tactics. For hunting they are inferior unless shooting birds with bird shot on the ground or water. The typical musket has about 1/3 the range and uses twice the lead of a 54 caliber rifle. The fowler is as bad its just a smaller bore generally and lighter.
Lewis & Clark had muskets and other smoothbores still the rifles they took were the primary arms for hunting and defense. Nor did they use small shot so far as I know.
The inefficiency of the trade gun when compared to the rifle was well known by the 1750s. The natives being armed with rifles hurt trade due to the reduction in the consumption of powder and lead. As a result there was a widespread effort to prevent the natives obtaining them. When shooting a single round ball, as was the the norm, using a smooth bored gun in the west for hunting to defense in the 19th c context is a great handicap that is not needed when in a survival situation.
In the east Militia laws often required men to have an arm of regulation bore size and smooth along with requirements for a certain amount or ammunition. So lots of people had militia arms . Did many USE them for any other purpose? Its doubtful.
We have to remember that at the time and to this day there are gun owners, shooters and riflemen. There is a vast difference in the first and third classes.

Dan

 

[tenngun]

to Dan I have to say good thinking.On the other hand I have to say the plains were abandon between 900and1200AD. Then before 1300 people started moving upriver from the mississippi valley.These people farmed so they hunted for about 1/2 of thier food.They hunted with stone tips well within musket range. With the comming of the horse more tribes started comming to the plains,hunting with stone points in musket range. French-Canidians came in the 18th century all fusil/musket armed.I grew up in New Mexico I hunted with ml rifles,but the deer I took was all within 50 yards,,one at less then 10.Took a deer in Wyoming at less then 30 yards again well within musket range. Ihave to wonder if most of the time riflemen had to shoot beoynd musket range :hmm:

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

History almost always beats fiction. I've read about this from the orginal sources too, and that must have been astonishing to watch.

 

[pargent]

It's a well known but hard to prove that the BRitish Gov . was selling it's surplus and not fit for use muskets ( espesialy Leige guns ) to US natives well past 1860 through gun dealers and gunrunners from Canada. BTW the currency was horses .Rifleman do you know the cost of a rifle from this period ,not a indian trade jobby but a middrange PENN. RIFLE.

 

[Luke MacGillie]

By the by I blow down my bores "tween shots :rotf:

You Devil you! I have been known to smoke while wearing a powder horn and ripping the tags off mattresses :rotf: