General Kit question please

[Blackbeard4590]

I am a long time woodworker (furniture, marquetry, turning, inlay) and I was just starting to look into rifle kits. I see many that are 90% or more stock completion and Mr. Kibler's kits are at 99-100% as far as any degree of necessary woodworking is concerned. The other end of the spectrum seems (so far) to be a seasoned blank and purchase barrel, lock, trigger(s) and furniture piece-by-piece. Granted I just started looking, but is there a happy medium in the kit world? I would like to get some experience for the assembly process, but I did want to have the enjoyment of some woodworking and apply that skill to the rifle build process. If they do most or all of that work for you, there is little to nothing to learn in application of previously learned craft skill. The other end of that is jump in the deep end and start with a block of wood. Any guidance is appreciated.
Thank you in advance.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
There are quite a few options. Chambers kits will require a fair amount of wood working. Here is a thread that will give you an idea including some minor problems that often crop up with kits like this.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-chambers-little-fellas-rifle.110688/Many of the other kits based around precarved stocks are similar. Another option is to buy a rough stock blank and parts and then have someone like Dave Keck at Knob Mountain Muzzleloading machine inlet the barrel and drill for the ramrod hole. Dave will also profile the stock for you if desired and he has many patterns to choose from. He will also just put in the barrel so you can do everything else. Going this route gets you past the big tedious job of inletting a long barrel and lets you get to the rest of the inletting and wood shaping that much quicker. Here is a thread in which I start with a rough stock that Dave had inlet the barrel and drilled the ramrod hole.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/making-a-1770s-british-rifled-officers-fusil.120093/
dave

 

[ppb]

You might consider talking to a supplier such as Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply about having them carve a stock pattern for you. If I recall correctly, they will tailor their carving (inletting/mortising) to your request. Having them carve a barrel channel and drill a ram rod hole may be a good place to start...

 

[geb324]

Even though You are a skilled wood worker A Kibler kit is a good way to go you will get a sense of what a rifle
should look like and it does take some skill to put a Kibler together and make it look right it is not just snap together.
you can screw it up. You can always buy all the parts and start from scratch but You will make mistakes unless You have someone to guide You along the way. Just my 2 cents

 

[hanshi]

The kits already mentioned do fit your requirements for a kit that needs more than just a little work. Also TVM has two levels of kits available. One is said to be a good choice for the home hobbyist and is closer to the Kibler kits than to Chambers kits. But they have another kit they call a "builders kit". This kit is just roughed out and along the same lines as the Chambers & Pecatonica as far as skill goes.

 

[2 shots]

check out jim chambers kits

 

[Trapper Scott]

Being an advanced woodworker you have no doubt learned a lot of skills that you will benefit from when building a long rifle kit. My advice would be to still start out with one of the easier kits like a Kibler to get your feet wet. There is a lot more to building one than just the stock work. I've built several Traditions kits with one being too easy and the other being a huge chore because of the quality of the kit. I started my Kibler kit yesterday and worker at least 3 hours just inletting the barrel, so it's not a pop-it-together kit, and just finish the stock. Also, keep in mind that since your skills are more advanced than other first-time builders, you can add embellishments such as a patch box, inlays, and perhaps some wire inlay artwork. The point is you can do as little or as much as you want with just about any kit out there.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Just remember that about 99% of the work of building these kits is hand tool work. About the only power tool you'll find useful is a drill (though I DO use a random orbital sander some times to level off metal inlays) There will be very few straight line (except those along the barrel) on many of the styles.

 

[Fly Navy]

Also wood working is just part of building one of these rifles. You will need to work with some different types of metal. These metals also have a lot of different types of finish you can apply. Metal parts can be engraved to add even more beauty to them. Some kits have pretty nice metal parts, but I've also seen some parts that you had trouble telling what they are.

 

[Blackbeard4590]

Thank you Gents for all the help. I ordered the whole series of James Turpin's videos to get a really good sense of a scratch build.
I have mostly late 19th and early 20th century rifles (BPCR single shots, lever guns and shot guns) and have done some restoration with a friend of mine who is very experienced with restoration.
That is limited (on my part) to rust bluing, basic tuning of actions (very basic, the advanced work went over to Bill) sight mounting and metal preparation for Bill's amazing work. Bill is getting up in years now so asking him to do the metal work is difficult. I have a GRS engraving system. Now I have an excuse to really focus on learning that craft on metals.
I am well versed on hand tool use as a lot of my luthier work, inlay and marquetry are done by hand.
Not having the drill bits for ramrod holes nor the router bits for octagonal barrel inlets presents a difficulty for scratch building.
I will definitely start with a kit.
Thank you for all the recommendations on that.
I have searched my normal sources for the drill bits and for the router bits.
Is there a source for these or all they all custom made?
If these are a custom fabrication only, could I get a few sources?

 

[The Appalachian]

The kits already mentioned do fit your requirements for a kit that needs more than just a little work. Also TVM has two levels of kits available. One is said to be a good choice for the home hobbyist and is closer to the Kibler kits than to Chambers kits. But they have another kit they call a "builders kit". This kit is just roughed out and along the same lines as the Chambers & Pecatonica as far as skill goes.

Buy one or the other and THEN speak about your experience with it. The last TVM kit I saw more time was spent fixing what they screwed up than moving forward on the build. I'm talking about adding wood in certain inlet areas instead removing it. Whoever is running the router is just aweful at it. You're better off with a tree trunk and an axe to start out than one of their kits.

 

[LME]

Hi,
There are quite a few options. Chambers kits will require a fair amount of wood working. Here is a thread that will give you an idea including some minor problems that often crop up with kits like this.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-chambers-little-fellas-rifle.110688/Many of the other kits based around precarved stocks are similar. Another option is to buy a rough stock blank and parts and then have someone like Dave Keck at Knob Mountain Muzzleloading machine inlet the barrel and drill for the ramrod hole. Dave will also profile the stock for you if desired and he has many patterns to choose from. He will also just put in the barrel so you can do everything else. Going this route gets you past the big tedious job of inletting a long barrel and lets you get to the rest of the inletting and wood shaping that much quicker. Here is a thread in which I start with a rough stock that Dave had inlet the barrel and drilled the ramrod hole.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/making-a-1770s-british-rifled-officers-fusil.120093/
dave

You have more talent than one man deserves! I can omly dream of doing work as great as yours? I tried to pick the best part of your build but gave up? All parts were great.

 

[jefair1]

Thank you Gents for all the help. I ordered the whole series of James Turpin's videos to get a really good sense of a scratch build.
I have mostly late 19th and early 20th century rifles (BPCR single shots, lever guns and shot guns) and have done some restoration with a friend of mine who is very experienced with restoration.
That is limited (on my part) to rust bluing, basic tuning of actions (very basic, the advanced work went over to Bill) sight mounting and metal preparation for Bill's amazing work. Bill is getting up in years now so asking him to do the metal work is difficult. I have a GRS engraving system. Now I have an excuse to really focus on learning that craft on metals.
I am well versed on hand tool use as a lot of my luthier work, inlay and marquetry are done by hand.
Not having the drill bits for ramrod holes nor the router bits for octagonal barrel inlets presents a difficulty for scratch building.
I will definitely start with a kit.
Thank you for all the recommendations on that.
I have searched my normal sources for the drill bits and for the router bits.
Is there a source for these or all they all custom made?
If these are a custom fabrication only, could I get a few sources?

There are also a couple of videos by the House brothers that are full of good info.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Hi,
There are quite a few options. Chambers kits will require a fair amount of wood working. Here is a thread that will give you an idea including some minor problems that often crop up with kits like this.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-chambers-little-fellas-rifle.110688/Many of the other kits based around precarved stocks are similar. Another option is to buy a rough stock blank and parts and then have someone like Dave Keck at Knob Mountain Muzzleloading machine inlet the barrel and drill for the ramrod hole. Dave will also profile the stock for you if desired and he has many patterns to choose from. He will also just put in the barrel so you can do everything else. Going this route gets you past the big tedious job of inletting a long barrel and lets you get to the rest of the inletting and wood shaping that much quicker. Here is a thread in which I start with a rough stock that Dave had inlet the barrel and drilled the ramrod hole.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/making-a-1770s-british-rifled-officers-fusil.120093/
dave

Great information!

 

[1BadDart]

I would recommend a kit from Pecatonica. I would guess the wood on the one I finished this past summer was in the 80% range. All the inletting was small and there was plenty of wood left on the stock to get the profile I wanted. Also, I didn't have the stock cut for LOP. All the hardware was as cast and had to be finished.

I'm thinking now that I have one behind me if I ever do another it'll be from a blank.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have built a kit from TOW, done one precarve that I collected the parts for, I have put together a Kibler SMR and I have done two builds from a plank after I had the barrel inletted and ramrod hole drilled by an expert.

The Kibler is a no brainer, the precarved kits had flaws in the stock shaping, some MAJOR. I found that building from a plank to be easier than building from a kit or a precarve. Shaping the stock is not hard to do if you have a plan to go by, I use the full-sized plans from TOW to get the general idea but the plan might not be a perfect fit for your parts so you have to adjust things as you proceed. This build took me almost a year, I only worked at it every now and then, I found slow and cautious work to be the best option.

I am saying this as loud as I can "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT LETTING THE PRECARVER INLET YOUR LOCK, BAD THINGS CAN HAPPEN AND IT VERY WELL MAY BE IN THE WRONG PLACE". I am speaking from experience. This warning doesn't apply to Kibler kits, the lock inlets are perfect. In the picture I am filling in a badly misplaced lock inlet from the precarver to do the whole thing over.

This is the start of my fowler, barrel and ramrod hole drilled by Fred Miller (now Knob Mt)

I got my plan to make a pattern to lay out my stock;

It came out pretty nice, this is my second gun, I was a complete rookie and had never built any rifle or shotgun when I started on my first build, also from a plank with an inletted barrel and drilled ramrod hole.

 

[martin9]

Track of the wolf and muzzleloader builders supply have ramrod drills. I just made all of mine. I've seen a few folks modify router bits for barrel inlets. Some builders, myself included just inlet barrels by hand with chisels. Not all that difficult although you're liable to break a sweat before the days out.

 

[hanshi]

Buy one or the other and THEN speak about your experience with it. The last TVM kit I saw more time was spent fixing what they screwed up than moving forward on the build. I'm talking about adding wood in certain inlet areas instead removing it. Whoever is running the router is just aweful at it. You're better off with a tree trunk and an axe to start out than one of their kits.

Your response to my post got me to remembering something similar to what you said. Now I've heard the same thing from other builders but one stands out. This builder is respected but unfortunately retired. I got a rifle from him and I really like it. But he absolutely wouldn't build a gun from any kit for the reasons you describe. This was before Jim Kibler did his magic. He built his guns from a plank because it was "easier". Seem too many kits had enough flaws to sometimes render a kit almost "unbuildable". I know quite a few shooters who have examples of his work and have rarely, if ever, heard any negative comments on his builds. Just thought you'd like to hear you're not alone on precarves (in general).

 

[Blackbeard4590]

Wow Eric, that came out great. My James Turpin set arrived and I spent last night watching the flintlock and carving discs. I have no issues with the requisite skill needed for the lock inletting, or the other woodworking (shaping, cast-off, etc).

Thanks Martin. I will order the drill bit(s) for the ramrod. Having a large wood lathe, I may try chucking the drill rod in the headstock and using it as a horizontal drill press, that should ensure a well aligned boring.

Do the gents that pre-inlet the barrels make their own router or milling bits or is there a source for those. I agree that I could do this by hand by routing out an undersized round barrel channel then shaping the bottom and sides, but I was curious if I could obtain a half-octagon router bit for the sake of efficiency.

I was interested in a Tennessee Mountain Rifle as a first project. I will search out plans for that or a good kit for that style first.
Thanks for all the great information and opinions. It is appreciated.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I have built a kit from TOW, done one precarve that I collected the parts for, I have put together a Kibler SMR and I have done two builds from a plank after I had the barrel inletted and ramrod hole drilled by an expert.

The Kibler is a no brainer, the precarved kits had flaws in the stock shaping, some MAJOR. I found that building from a plank to be easier than building from a kit or a precarve. Shaping the stock is not hard to do if you have a plan to go by, I use the full-sized plans from TOW to get the general idea but the plan might not be a perfect fit for your parts so you have to adjust things as you proceed. This build took me almost a year, I only worked at it every now and then, I found slow and cautious work to be the best option.

I am saying this as loud as I can "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT LETTING THE PRECARVER INLET YOUR LOCK, BAD THINGS CAN HAPPEN AND IT VERY WELL MAY BE IN THE WRONG PLACE". I am speaking from experience. This warning doesn't apply to Kibler kits, the lock inlets are perfect. In the picture I am filling in a badly misplaced lock inlet from the precarver to do the whole thing over.

View attachment 168282

This is the start of my fowler, barrel and ramrod hole drilled by Fred Miller (now Knob Mt)

View attachment 168279

I got my plan to make a pattern to lay out my stock;

View attachment 168280

It came out pretty nice, this is my second gun, I was a complete rookie and had never built any rifle or shotgun when I started on my first build, also from a plank with an inletted barrel and drilled ramrod hole.

View attachment 168281

I know Eric is an awesome builder and I totally admire and respect his knowledge, experience and high skills. But regarding the lock pre- inlets, Maybe I am lucky? I have had just one pre-carved stock that needed the barrel to be adjusted forward to line-up with the lock. Not much work to correct it. So far, the precarved stocks I have gotten from Pecatonica (five rifles, two Fusil de Chasse and one pistol), one Fusil Fin from Larry Zornes ( via Clay Smith) and two pistols from MBS have all been quite good fully pre- carved stocks.
I do feel that if something did come to me that was unworkable that I would contact the supplier and discuss it. I have found the to be really understanding and easy to work with.