George Newton 12 Ga Dbl bbl

[Eterry]

Recently this 12 bore dbl bbl followed me home. The barrels are .742". The proof marks aren't the same as my Belgian William Moore. Can someone help me identify the proof marks?

According to VM Starr I think it's British Proofs. There's no ELG inside a circle to be seen, and the barrels are joined by a silver metal. On the top rib I can barely make out "Fine Twist" perhaps London is before it, but not really visible.

Sorry for poor quality of pics, my camera stinks.

 

[Eterry]

I thought there was a link or sticky to British Proof Marks on this site... can someone point me to it?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Its in the "How to articles Charts and technical references".

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/modern-replica-dating-by-proof-marks.49482/

 

[Eterry]

Its in the "How to articles Charts and technical references".

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/modern-replica-dating-by-proof-marks.49482/

I don't think this is a replica... anyone else have an idea?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Sorry, I was too quick to post and I should have read the link.

A google search of European Firearm Proof marks will yield a lot of images of British, German, French and Italian Proof marks.

The NRA Museum had this list: http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

 

[Eterry]

Thanks Grenadier, as near as I can tell, according to that list the George Newton is proofed in Birmingham between 1865 and 1923.

 

[TFoley]

PD

 

[TFoley]

Shotgun cartridges were invented in the 1860s, so this muzzleloading shotgun is more than likely to date from around that time. British sportsmen were VERY quick to take up cartridges, replacing the cumbersome effort of muzzle-loading two barrels, often in less than ideal weather, whilst standing under it. Even if, as was mostly the case, one's loader was doing it for one.

BTW, a couple of things - yes, you definitely need a new camera, and in all my life I have never seen or heard of a replica of any kind of English-made shotgun, especially one that has such clear Birmingham Proof marks - even given the limits of the imagery I can determine the letters BPC around the crossed sceptres. I note here that fraudulently replicating English proof marks is a criminal offence, as gun Proof is actually part of the Gun Barrel Proof Acts of Parliament 1868 et al. True, these days you won't get taken to The Tower to have your head lopped off, but you will feel a certain lack of freedom for a while and a distinct dent in your personal funds to the tune of £1000 per offence - and each fake stamp is a separate offence...

 

[jlatz]

These look like post 1855 Birmingham proofs, perhaps.

 

[Eterry]

TFoley, maybe I was not clear enough. But Nowhere in my OP did I mention Shotgun Cartridges, or Breach Loader, or Replica gun.

The gun appears to be an original George Newton Muzzle Loading 12 bore (.742"), black powder double barrel shotgun, complete with well battered nipples and a nice ramrod.

The first link Grenadier posted was for proof marks of replica guns. I responded I thought it was an original, he posted the link for original proof marks.

My cell phone was knocked from my hand and the lens covering the camera was broken. The pictures all looked like they were taken thru a spider web, until I used a needle to remove the broken lens. I was scheduled to have it repaired, but didn't make the appointment. So I was reluctant to take lousy pics of the entire gun.
I'll try and get better pictures.

 

[Eterry]

British Gentlemen may have been quick to embrace the cartridge shotgun, but I know my Grandfather used a muzzle loading shotgun into the 1920s, and noted black powder author VM Starr was using muzzle loading shotguns into the middle 1940s.

 

[TFoley]

Hey, calm down. In post #4 you wrote - 'I don't think this is a replica... anyone else have an idea?'

My comment was made to reinforce your opinion, not to shoot it in the head.

And in post #8 I wrote - 'especially one that has such clear Birmingham Proof marks - even given the limits of the imagery I can determine the letters BPC around the crossed sceptres.'

According to the little booklet published by the London Proof House, this style of Birmingham proof stamp was in use until 1904.

...and MY comment about cartridges et al was to reinforce the possible dateline, NOT to accuse you of calling it a breech-loader or anything else. My other comment about replicas was to show that even today there is not common determination of what constitutes BP proof, even among those countries who still make these guns.

Lighten up, sir, life is stressful enough at this time, without inventing arguments.

 

[Eterry]

Mr. TFoley, I was not trying to argue with you, I wanted everyone to know I had not posted pictures of a breach loading shotgun, and it, in my humble opinion, was not a replica.

Im having trouble finding information on this shotgun, no one seems to know anything about it. There are a few internet posts about ones for sale on the past, but no info on quantity, quality, or worth.

I agree life is too short to spend it arguing. I wasn't trying to, if it seemed that way, my apologies.